Jeremy Rivera's Journey From Evangelical Pastor to Catholic

[00:00:00] Speaker A: From evangelical pastor who was convinced that Catholics don't know Jesus to devout Catholic Jeremy Rivera's story is going to blow your mind today on the Chris Stefanik Show. Welcome to the Chris Stefanik show, guys. We're here every week to give you the tools and inspiration that you need to live your everyday life with joy. Missionaries of Joy, thank you for making this and all of our works possible, including the core confirmation program. It's going to transform a generation to bring young people to a personal relationship with Jesus and to a healing knowledge of themselves through the eyes of God and the lens of faith. Jump on board, dude. Become a missionary Joy. Help us change the world. Link is below the video. If you're not getting the daily anchor sign up, want to inspire you every day. It's for free. No strings attached. I promise you this will be the one thing that you're excited to see in your inbox every day. Link is also below that. And this episode is sponsored in part by ewtn. You can catch this and so much more on EWTN plus streaming. Link is below in the show notes. Let's dive in. Jeremy Rivera. I love you man. Yeah, we're looking forward to this conversation. Seriously man. Good convert from Protestantism to Catholicism. Protestant pastor, Evangelical pastor, now a Catholic. I want to get into that story first I want to make an important disclaimer, important clarifier rather the thing if you're not a Catholic and watching. And I have a lot of good friends who are evangelical and there's so many ways that I feel like in my spirit I align with them more than a lot of people in Catholic ministry land. What unites us is literally infinite. It's Jesus and is therefore infinitely larger than the sub points that divide us. [00:01:51] Speaker B: Amen. [00:01:51] Speaker A: But because he's infinitely important, the things that come from him are actually important too. So we can't just say, well, he's all that matters, therefore all the stuff is unimportant. No, it's really important because he matters infinitely. But we gotta remember this when we're talking about this whole topic. We're not gonna be heavy handed like you've gotta be a Catholic or you have no life in you. Though I really believe these things are really, really important. The all important thing is Jesus Christ. So this is the starting point when we talk to our non Catholic friends. He who unites us, we got to find these points of unity and rejoice in that. [00:02:28] Speaker B: Amen. Right? [00:02:29] Speaker A: Amen. [00:02:29] Speaker B: Yeah. St. Augustine. What did he say? He said in the essentials Let there be unity in the non essentials, liberty, but in all things, charity. [00:02:37] Speaker A: Amen. [00:02:37] Speaker B: It's a great way to. So there's a few essentials where there's still some sad division, you know. [00:02:41] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So we got to work on that, man. But as an evangelical pastor, did you think a lot of Catholics were going to hell? Like, there's a big spectrum. A lot of them are very cool. [00:02:52] Speaker B: Right. There is still a vein within the church universal that believes that and that espouses that, you know, But I didn't. I think most don't. They try to stay away from judging souls and salvation. But that being said, definitely out of line with scripture, out of line with the gospel, ultimately. [00:03:17] Speaker A: Wrong and really important ways. [00:03:18] Speaker B: Yes. [00:03:20] Speaker A: And sometimes they're right in that assessment. Right. [00:03:23] Speaker B: Well, when it comes to sinful practice, and we can talk about that later, about the difference between what does the church actually teach and what is the sinful practice that we need to repent of and have tried to repent of over the centuries. [00:03:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Or when religion becomes hollow religiosity. I mean, it can become Phariseeism. Yeah, right. [00:03:41] Speaker B: Yeah. For Catholics or Protestants. Right. [00:03:44] Speaker A: I mean, 100%, man. [00:03:45] Speaker B: You know, it's. There's hypocrisy on both sides of the aisle there. And I think everybody who's honest would admit to that. [00:03:52] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, and yet religion itself, if we're to veer at all into apologetics, I want to, in this. In this particular point, just to appeal to unity. I remember it was the early 2000s. There was a really, really viral video. What if Jesus came to abolish religion? Which, if you're old enough, you remember how annoying that video was if you were a Catholic, you know, what if I told you. What if I told you. What if I told you Jesus came to start a religion? What if I told you if you go through any ritual like baptism and call yourself Christian, that is actually a religion. Having come full circle from evangelical to Catholic. Before we get into your story, what would the apologetic answer be? Defending religion? I do think there's more Protestants coming around to, hey, religion itself is not a bad word. [00:04:36] Speaker B: Well, it is a bad word in. I would say in, like, evangelicalism. [00:04:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:41] Speaker B: In that branch of. In certain branches of Protestantism, religion actually isn't a great word. And so it comes down to some semantics and misperceptions and language. It's very important, you know, because to a lot of those camps, religion is the religion of the Pharisees and the Sadducees. And the. It's exterior. Right. And so there's a. There's a very intentional move away from religion, which is exterior in nature. Right. You stand on street corners to be seen by men. You wear certain clothes. Right? [00:05:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:14] Speaker B: Those types of things are religious and that's real. You know, and those are things that are not. Because of what Jesus says about clean. The inside of the cup and the outside will become clean. Also that it's an interior work. They're viewed primarily with negativity. So the pastor comes out with ripped jeans and a T shirt and you know, and he's cool. [00:05:36] Speaker A: I'm just missing the ripped jeans. [00:05:40] Speaker B: You got the best of both worlds. [00:05:41] Speaker A: But there's a bit of like throwing the baby with the bath water, you know? [00:05:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Because to a Catholic, that's not what religion means at all. It's not just the exterior, you know, it is an integration of the interior and the exterior or it should be. [00:05:56] Speaker A: Right. I mean, there can be the vice. All the beauties in the church, all the blessings have a way you could fall off the cliff in the opposite direction. Dude, there's somebody who's president of the college. I won't say what particular college, but he said there was a problem with kids gossiping about who's wearing a veil at mass and who's not. [00:06:17] Speaker B: Silly. [00:06:17] Speaker A: Right. [00:06:18] Speaker B: Literal Phariseeism or do you receive the Eucharist on the tongue or the hand or. Really? [00:06:24] Speaker A: Yeah. The kingdom of God's not a matter of eating or drinking. You know, St. Paul, this is all black and white in scripture. Not to obsess on the finer points of how you do it. Right. But you know, I love thinking of Aquinas, his definition of religion. Religiosity is a subset under justice and it's giving God his due. And that takes tangible expressions. And if you. Religiosity is a virtue, you know, like that. I'm going to give tangible expression to these observances that are sacred. But it wants to come from the heart. [00:06:55] Speaker B: But if perception, if perception is reality, then that's not what it means to a large, very large group of people. So it's important for us to know that so we don't come out and say, yeah, I'm religious. Right. Because you need to know how that's going to fall on their ears. [00:07:07] Speaker A: Yeah, right. Yeah. But there is. [00:07:09] Speaker B: And then maybe work in some of the healing of the misperception about what that means, you know. [00:07:14] Speaker A: Amen. Okay, tell me about your. I'm sorry, I'm probably over talking I just getting excited talking to you. I want to hear your journey. What brought you from evangelical? Well, actually, let's go the whole journey. [00:07:25] Speaker B: Sure. [00:07:26] Speaker A: You fell in love with Jesus because this is the infinitely important thing at a young age as an evangelical. So tell us that journey first and then the journey from there to the Catholic Church, which is, dude. To give up the, you know, the status of pastor to become a. Just a catholic lay schlep like me. [00:07:46] Speaker B: I'll make a long story short. The first question about kind of what led me to Jesus and to love God was, you know, there's a great line I've been kind of meditating on. It's really been feeding my soul from St. Augustine where he said, God had one son without sin, but not one without suffering. [00:08:05] Speaker A: Oh, say that again. [00:08:06] Speaker B: Yeah, God had one son without sin, but not one without suffering. And so for me, when I look over my. My life, I go back to, you know, my parents divorce was really tough on me, which led to crying out to God even as a young kid. And for me, that was 1985, Christmas Eve. And I was in the shower and I was getting ready to go to midnight mass. My, my mom was Catholic, my stepdad wasn't, but it had just been kind of dragged through a rough, you know, process with the divorce. So happened really quickly. And anyway, I. I just remember in the shower, it was like a metaphor for my life because you're naked before God and just the invitation to be his son, you know, came to me in the shower and I said, remember saying yes to him. And it was almost like, you gotta be kidding me, man. Not a sacramental thing, but it was like my baptism. I was filled with the Holy Spirit in the shower. I consider it like my baptism in the Holy Spirit. I was jumping up and down with joy. I didn't fully understand what was going on. [00:09:05] Speaker A: Are you kidding me? [00:09:06] Speaker B: No, no. And I got dressed and I ran upst and my mom was there. We were getting ready to go to midnight mass, Christmas Eve, 1985. And I was jumping up and down. She said, literally she said, what's gotten into you, son? And I said, I don't know. I just feel God in my heart. And she knew it had happened, something had happened. And she had this beautiful crucifix. It was made in Italy, painted in Italy, handmade or whatever. And she had it under the bed because she was going to give it to me for Christmas the next day. And she said, I have to give you this now. And she pulled out this crucifix and that's the crucifix that's in my kitchen today. Isn't that cool, man? Glory to God. [00:09:38] Speaker A: It's beyond cool. I love when conversion stories are just, [00:09:41] Speaker B: you know, and there was no other human intervention. [00:09:45] Speaker A: I asked people what brought you in the church, and I want to hear them say it was your video, Chris. It's usually like, Jesus just drew me there. He's just doing it. Hey, friend. I want to invite you into something that's changing lives. Every single day, people all over the world are rediscovering their faith, finding real joy, and learning how to share the gospel with confidence. And guess what? 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People are dying for meaning, and together we could bring them the hope of Jesus. The question isn't if you can make a difference, it's will you click the link below. Join the mission today. [00:11:20] Speaker B: But like so many Catholics and, you know, God bless my mom, she did her best to get my brother and I's butts to mass and wake us up. And we wanted to watch football and, you know, just she put me in front of the, you know, made me get confirmed. I was kicked out of confirmation as a junior, did another lap, finally got confirmed as a senior because I was divisive and had a lot of evangelical friends that were planting seeds about Mary and just interesting things. And so I took that and would challenge the priest and, you know, but like so many Catholics, I fell away as soon as I left the church. I went to school at CU Boulder University of Colorado in Boulder and joined a fraternity and was very, very lost, but also very sincere in seeking to find myself. You know, like, so many people will go to Spain to walk the Camino or they'll right. It was a time for me. And I had been reading Eastern philosophy, came across a book called Way of the Peaceful Warrior that was really life changing for me by Dan Millman. Wrote Dan. He wrote me back. [00:12:18] Speaker A: No way. [00:12:19] Speaker B: Yeah. So this all before any of the, you know, I'd had this brush with God at 10 and had started reading the Bible at a young age. But so it was meaningful to me. So, like, when I lost my virginity, for example, in high school, instead of being like, oh, I scored and celebrating with the guys, I cried in my room and lit a candle. [00:12:36] Speaker A: Wow. [00:12:37] Speaker B: And that was all a sign of, like, there was. The interior work had already started. The spirit of God was grieved inside of me. And so I was sad. I was like, gosh, God, I'm never going to do that again. And wow, you know, not normal. [00:12:50] Speaker A: Yeah, I hear you, man. [00:12:51] Speaker B: You know, and so when I went to see you, it was more of that trying to fit in, trying to, you know, you know, a lot of drinking, a lot of some drugs. And eventually I got a girl pregnant, you know, living that lifestyle. And that was all my freshman year. And she had an abortion. And through that process was the process that I was on my knees in my dorm room saying, God, if you're real, I need you now. And, boy, did he answer my prayers. He really answered my prayers and came out of the woodwork through other people. Now I will say I did go to St. Thomas Aquinas. I did try to talk to the priest when I was in the middle of the crisis. This was before the abortion had even happened. And again, no fault to the priest or judgment, but he didn't have time. He said, you know, schedule some time with my secretary. Come back maybe this week. And as I was walking away from the church in Boulder, I mean, it was so palpable, almost the spirit of God was like saying, I've got you. I know you're suffering, but I've got you. And as soon as that happened, like the next day, evangelical Protestants started coming out of the woodwork because they're so good at outreach. And a guy at the gym witnessed, to me, that was the Lord. [00:14:07] Speaker A: He's like, if. If the church I founded isn't doing it, I'm not going to let this sheep go into the darkness. [00:14:14] Speaker B: So a kid in class actually got up at a sociology class and shared the gospel with the class. And he said, I'm a Christian. If anybody wants to stay after and ask me questions, I'll stay after. And I stayed after and talked to this guy. Tim didn't know him from Adam. And Tim said, love to come, love to invite you to my Bible study. And he had no idea what was going on in my life. And then again, trying to make this short, went to a Bible study and they're reading Romans and we're in Romans 8. And I read the words from Romans 5. Sorry, Romans 5, 8, that says that God proves his love for us in this. That while we were yet sinners or still sinners, Christ died for the ungodly. Well, I was in the midst of my sin. And when you've gotten a girl pregnant who's scheduled an abortion at Planned Parenthood, you're in the midst of the drags of it. And that verse, like hopped off the page, you know, convicted me. You know, we talk about the word of God as a double edged sword. Sharper, you know, sharper than a double edged sword. It pierced me and I fell like into a puddle of snot and tears. [00:15:18] Speaker A: Wow. [00:15:19] Speaker B: And, you know, that was what I would consider like my second conversion, in a sense. And it was a 180 for me. It was 180 and just started to pursue the things of God. But it was not in a Catholic context. [00:15:31] Speaker A: And I want to. Just, just marinating in this for just a second. The Lord used your lowest moment to actually teach you the gospel. I mean, that's just profoundly beautiful. [00:15:42] Speaker B: Yeah. The light is always like closest to those in the darkness. [00:15:46] Speaker A: Isn't that amazing? If someone's watching and feeling like I'm in such a dark place, like you might just be about to break through the light on the other side of that. [00:15:55] Speaker B: Amen. [00:15:56] Speaker A: You know, the Lord just leads us through that stuff, man. And talk about a purifying of if religion does go bad and sour, it's usually because we think we're doing stuff to earn his love and we're doing it because he loved us first. I mean, that's. You know, there's condemned heresies in the church that people have never heard of, Pelagianism and Jansenism, yet they live out of those heresies that we do. Catholic stuff. So he'll love us and like you're ripped down to nothing and then realize what this is about. Praise God. I just, I just wanted to. [00:16:29] Speaker B: Yeah. So I was, I was in a very, you know, dark place. He met me there. Very, very profound encounter. The grace was like, again, it was like, it was like palpable in that season of my life. You could ask my fraternity brothers. They're like we didn't recognize him. I mean, he was a 180. I was reading the Bible. I was reading the Bible two hours a day, listening to sermons, sharing the gospel with everybody in the house, anybody who would listen. There was just a sense of urgency I've always had with the gospel. Like Paul, I was reading where he's just like, I think, you know, chap, you and I have talked about this where he's like, he's like, I think Paul thought Jesus was coming back in his lifetime. Literally. That's why he's like, if you're a virgin, like, don't get married, don't. Like, it's all about preparing yourself for the coming of Christ. And there was a sense of urgency, this leaning forward on the balls of your feet. Like, you know, don't take the season off. It's in season and out of season, you know. And I think we've lost a lot of that, you know, we've leaned too much on, well, this is kind of how it's always been and it'll be here when we're gone. And I don't know, I think for us, we're in our last days and these are the end times for us. And because we're 50, you know. Yeah, 51. But you know, I just sometimes feel like we think we have a lot more time than we do. And scripture says, you know, today is the day, now is the time, right? [00:17:42] Speaker A: Repent, come to Jesus as long as you have breath. [00:17:45] Speaker B: Like it's an opportunity to get right with God, you know. [00:17:49] Speaker A: So that was from those to pass. [00:17:50] Speaker B: Yeah, so. So long story short, God up and moves me like he did the prodigal son and threw a party for him when he returned. God put me in Hawaii, which you love Hawaii, you know, Hawaii. So I'm moved from my. I wish the Lord would put me. [00:18:04] Speaker A: He's like, I'm calling you to preach in North Dakota, North Shore, North Dakota. Yeah, yeah. Wait, Turtle Bay Hilton Turtle Mountain Indian Reservation, North Dakota. Like, sorry, I love it. [00:18:20] Speaker B: Well, I got the call to go to Hawaii. My best friend and I moved to Hawaii and I was 19. So I did sophomore, junior, senior year at Hawaii Pacific University. And those were just unbelievable forming years. But they were all at Hope Chapel, Kaneohe and New Hope Christian Fellowship. Two kind of non denominational, they're four square churches, but just awesome. Taught the word of God, taught how to praise God, taught how to play guitar. We're surfing, we have a surf ministry, we have all this stuff and, and that Was my kind of still drinking the milk, if you will, in my formation and really admired the. The two pastors. The two. Two men in my life was Ralph Moore and Wayne Cordero, two amazing men of God who've planted hundreds of churches or faith communities. And anyway, they said my senior year, I decided to stay in Hawaii, not take a job downtown Denver, where I had interned for four years. And my pastor, Wayne, he said, you know, we've been observing you. We think you have a lot of gifts. We want to pay for you to go to seminary and work at the church, earn a small salary. So I'm like, that's the door I'm walking through. Boom. So went to seminary, started. I was a college pastor at the University of Hawaii in the late 90s. And then Menlo Park Presbyterian called and said, we want you to come out to Menlo and do the same thing. It's right by Stanford. And I was ready to kind of get back to the mainland after five or six years. And so I worked at Menlo. And anyway, yeah, so. And then the last stint was Denver, and I was in Pathways Church right by the cathedral. So that's where the encounter started to take shape with our friend. [00:20:02] Speaker A: What's it like on the inside when you're an evangelical pastor? I'd imagine there's a lot of awesome things about it because you have a singular focus. Honestly, it's a. It's essential to the business model to keep a focus on the gospel because no one's going to, you know, whatever. Menlo Park first community, because their family's been there for 500 years or 1,000 years. I'm Irish. It's been since St. Patrick. Right. Half Irish, half Slovak. So I don't know when that started. Cyril and Methodius, you know, like, this is a long time. Yeah. You guys have to sell people on Jesus and specifically Jesus in your church. Music's gotta be good and it's gotta be well done. Right. So there's a blessing in that. Bring people to Jesus. I'd imagine the curse is extraordinary pressure because we can rest on our laurels. And there's downfalls to that, obviously. You know, like, we don't have to make it good. You have to come or you're going to hell. [00:20:59] Speaker B: Yes and no. I mean, yes and no. On the pressure. I mean, I think the community was always, at least where I was involved. Like the communities I started, one in Hawaii, one in Northern California, one in Denver. It was always. I'd like to think it was me that kept them Coming back. But it was always the community. It was the relationships that people had. [00:21:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:19] Speaker B: And that's something that kind of rubs me the wrong way a little bit in my Catholic experience, where I don't really know anybody standing next to me at St. Thomas More, you know, I know some people, but not most on a given Sunday. And it's just clock in, you clock out, and everybody goes to their car and goes home. [00:21:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:33] Speaker B: At the evangelical churches, it was like, you got to know people. You joined a small group. A huge emphasis on cell groups or small groups. How do you make a big church feel small? It was always small groups, you know, meeting in people's homes. How can we pray for you? Right. Even after the service, it'd be like, hey, there's a room over here where we're going to be praying for people who have needs. So go in there. [00:21:51] Speaker A: It's so in the Catholic DNA not to do that. I know there's people, I'm sure Thomas Moore or wherever, they're like, they're trying to work to bring small groups of community. And, like, the congregation's like, no, dude, I just want to come and do the thing and get out of here. [00:22:03] Speaker B: Don't mess up my clock in and clock out. [00:22:06] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, so it was a community that was. [00:22:08] Speaker B: There's a community, you know, and so. And there was kind of that, you know, we would joke about church hopping and shopping. You know, you'd go to Abundant Life for the preaching from Pastor Paul shepherd, and you'd go to Hawaii Highway Community for the community, and you'd come to Menlo for maybe the music and the experience, you know, so we would joke about church hopping and shopping and that, you know, we would encourage people. Don't just go there because the preaching is good. Don't just go there because the community's good or the girls are cute over there, or, you know, like, try to be grounded. But now, as a Catholic, I just see it completely different because of the Eucharist, you know, where to whom shall we go? I can't get Jesus, you know, in the way that I want to receive him. [00:22:49] Speaker A: I hear you, man. [00:22:50] Speaker B: You know. [00:22:51] Speaker A: Yeah. But I'm just here for the food. So on the worst Catholic days, you know, with some bad news breaks, like, I'm here for the food. [00:22:59] Speaker B: Right. [00:22:59] Speaker A: I just came for the. [00:23:00] Speaker B: That's right. [00:23:01] Speaker A: I want it to be more. [00:23:04] Speaker B: Sorry, I got a little lost here. Where were we? [00:23:05] Speaker A: Yeah, well, your journey now, from being a thriving pastor to throwing all that away because it's kind of awesome what you had going on there. [00:23:13] Speaker B: Right? It was. And, and those seasons of ministry for me were very special. Again, primarily the relationships that I, that I formed and made and married people and, you know, just that life of Ms. Preparing a sermon for six hours, working on it for eight hours, you know, to give a 45 minute sermon. [00:23:31] Speaker A: Beautiful. [00:23:31] Speaker B: You know, good work, love that, Ms. That. But there's always been this restlessness in my heart that I've always had. I mean, I've had people tell me that, like, you're never satisfied, like, why are you always so restless? And it's just, I don't, I don't know why I'm wired that way, but I think that continued on. Like I, I kept to go, I kept saying, like, the cult of personality in the evangelical church started to bother me. Like, why are the churches with the good looking charismatic pastor, the successful ones that are large and these other churches are kind of struggling to grow and don't have anybody going to them. And, you know, I would just start to question things like, where does authority come from? How do you, how do you have the authority to just start a church? You know, who has the final say on gay marriage or who has the final say on. Right. Some of these moral issues and that restlessness. You know, seeking has always been a big, a big word for me, you know, to seek and keep seeking in the Greek is what it's written as. You know, ask, seek, knock. It's asking, keep asking, knock and keep knocking. Seeking. Keep seeking. It's the disciple, right. It's a learner. He's never arrived. The restlessness is good. Like he wants you to continue to seek. That's why I named the Sikh conference the SEAT Conference. [00:24:44] Speaker A: You named the Seek conference? [00:24:45] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. Its whole name was Seek. And the tagline was what moves you? As a statement, not a question. Not like, what do you see? But see. But when you say seek, what moves you? It's now getting to the Hebrews verse that says that the word of God judges the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Right. Why do you want to be a doctor? Because it was for college students. Right. Why do you want to be a lawyer? Why do you. Right. Is money motivating you? Is power motivating? What's the motivation? That's what God's interested in. And so it was like, hey, you're in college. It's a perfect time to come and seek your heart, seek the heart of God and then see how it plays out. You know, seek what moves you. [00:25:20] Speaker A: What are you looking for? [00:25:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:22] Speaker A: Spiritual life starts with the first words of Jesus in the Gospel of John. [00:25:25] Speaker B: What are you looking for? [00:25:26] Speaker A: Look at. Yeah. Ask your own heart. [00:25:28] Speaker B: What are you looking for? Amen. So. So that restlessness. God and his providence. I was. I was a bachelor. I was 29, living in Denver, had a house that I bought and two rented two rooms to these two young guys that were evangelicals. They knew each other, went to school in Wisconsin at University of Wisconsin. And they had started, while living in my home, undergoing a leaning towards the Catholic Church. Before my eyes, they'd started coming to Pathways, but then all of a sudden, I didn't see them at Pathways. And like, what are you guys doing? And I saw this book from St. Augustine or St. Thomas Aquinas or the early church fathers, and they're like, get this stuff out of here. And they go, we've been going to the Sunday night mass with the Archbishop. And I'm like, so immediately I kind of had, like, house meeting. Let's have a conversation. Let me give you guys 7 good reasons not to become Catholic. I was raised Catholic. Let me spare you the. [00:26:20] Speaker A: What would reason number one. [00:26:23] Speaker B: And I usually say this is like, it's back to the religion word. It's. They're going to give you the religion. All the thou shall nots, all the to do lists. Right. Of what you need to do to be pleasing to God and put the cart before the horse. Which is the gospel. Which is what you said earlier, which is we love because he first loved us. Who initiated it? God initiated it. You didn't initiate it. He acts, he doesn't react. [00:26:46] Speaker A: Right. [00:26:47] Speaker B: So, yeah, so I was like, you know, it's. It's gonna be a move away from the. The love affair, the relationship, the fire, and into the mechanics and the, you know, and I was like, spare yourselves that don't, you know, you don't want to should all over yourself. You know what I mean? [00:27:03] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:27:04] Speaker B: Because you always come up short and you never feel good enough. Then you got the Catholic guilt piled on and, you know, and that's not the relationship God wants with you. So that's what I would tell them. [00:27:12] Speaker A: That's what you thought? [00:27:13] Speaker B: That's what I told them, you know. [00:27:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:15] Speaker B: And they were like, they took it very humbly because they were younger and I was a pastor, so they're like, you know, they listened with humility and they said, well, listen, why don't you just come to one mass with us? Because we met the archbishop and we told them all about you and I went, what'd you tell him? We told him that you were raised Catholic and confirmed, but left the church and now you're a pastor at Pathways two blocks away, and he wants to meet you. And so, you know, it was funny because they didn't know that in my heart, I had been seeking. I had been asking those tougher questions about authority. [00:27:47] Speaker A: The Lord just moves, but outwardly, I [00:27:49] Speaker B: couldn't give that off. You know, I couldn't. I had to be tough on the outside. And I was like, oh, I don't have any interest in going. You know, you tell the Archbishop if he's interested, he can come into Pathways anytime you want, wants. That's what I told him to tell him. [00:28:00] Speaker A: He could join a small group. [00:28:01] Speaker B: He can join a small group. He can take off his silly clothes and just. He's a normal dude. He's a normal guy. And anyway, months went by, and then I had a week off on Sunday night. And just to kind of get there was twofold. A. I was wanted to kind of like wet that appetite that I had been having for that longing for following the speaker wire back to the source, which couldn't be the Catholic Church, you know, in my mind, but also to kind of just appease my roommates and say, guys, just stop asking me. Because I went, okay, so we go to a Sunday night Mass. Archbishop Chaput is given the homily. I sat in the back with Scott and Mark now, or at least with Scott. I know Scott was their father. Scott, now he's a priest. And which father? Scott Jablonski. He lives in Wisconsin. [00:28:51] Speaker A: That's not a Wisconsin name. [00:28:52] Speaker B: Right. So as the archbishop would do at the end of Mass, he would stand at the big gold doors and shake people's hands. And I'm on my way out. And during the Mass, I just observed. I did not genuflect, I did not kneel. I did not obviously receive communion. I had a little chip on my shoulder. Because here I was thinking, I've been in this church my whole life until I was 18 years old, and I don't ever really remember clearly hearing that God loved me. Not only did I not hear God love me, I didn't hear that God liked me. I didn't hear about the relationship that I hear about week in a week out at my other church. [00:29:28] Speaker A: And I want to. I want to marinate in that for a sec, too. Yeah, people need to hear that. When I hear God loves you, they're like, well, it's his job. [00:29:35] Speaker B: He has to theologically, God is love. [00:29:37] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. [00:29:38] Speaker B: That doesn't like. [00:29:39] Speaker A: See, he likes parts of you. He likes things about you. He enjoys you. He delights in looking down at you. That's a. That's a powerful thought. [00:29:47] Speaker B: So. So I have this little chip on my shoulder. [00:29:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:49] Speaker B: We go meet Archbishop and he's like. They're like, this is Jeremy Rivera, roommate, the pastor of Pathways. And if you know Chaput, he can be a bit of a bulldog sometimes. And he comes at me kind of with that bulldog mentality, like, let me get this straight. He starts sizing me up. Were you really baptized Catholic? I said, yes. In Mont Bellow in North Denver. And he said, were you confirmed by Cardinal Stafford? I said, yes, Light of the world in 1993. [00:30:14] Speaker A: I said, God, welcome home. [00:30:16] Speaker B: And he goes, I don't get it. You're Catholic, but you're leading people out of the Catholic Church. You know, he was just kind of like, matter of fact about it. I don't get it. You're Catholic, but you're leading people out of the Catholic Church. And I said, well, maybe you're not doing something right. I said, the sheep are going to go where they get fed. And so he said, fair enough. And then again, kind of assuming, because he just assumed I'd want to come over and talk about this stuff, he said, well, look, let's just want to invite you over my house, and I'd like to hear what your issues are with the Catholic Church. And it was my opportunity to hurt back in that moment. And I said, no, thanks, I'm not interested. Nice to meet you. I shook his hand, kind of being a jerk. [00:30:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:30:53] Speaker B: And I turned my back on him to walk away, to kind of say, like, hey, I put him in his place. [00:30:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:58] Speaker B: And I felt this is one of the five defining moments in my life. I felt his hand on my shoulder and I turned in, like, surprise. And something about him changed. He wasn't the bulldog coming at me. He had, like, taken his miter off handed the staff and just looked at me like a father. And he said, would you meet me at Starbucks? Because he saw a sheep about ready to. About ready to walk away, you know, like a son leaving. And he said, would you meet me at Starbucks? [00:31:23] Speaker A: I just love that guy this week. [00:31:25] Speaker B: And I said, yeah, I'll meet you at Starbucks. That was fair. It was neutral ground, right? [00:31:31] Speaker A: Evangelization. Let's find a neutral ground. [00:31:34] Speaker B: So we met at Starbucks that week. I believe it was a Wednesday. I kind of remember it like, it was yesterday. And he was there first. And I get there and he shakes my hand and he says, I mean, he just came at it right away. And he said, listen, thanks for meeting me. I know you're busy. I'm busy. He goes, I just want to lay out for you what the Catholic Church actually teaches, because I don't know what misperceptions you have, but I'm assuming you have some. He says, and then I want to ask you for forgiveness right now for how he failed you in practice. Wow. And it was like, those are the words I needed to hear. [00:32:07] Speaker A: Wow. [00:32:07] Speaker B: I needed to hear the ownership be taken of, like, we should have told you. God like you, God liked you, you know, wow. So we, that, that did a lot to disarm me. And so the rest of the conversation was great. And we started to line up our misperceptions. I, I thought Catholics worshiped Mary. You know, I thought, I thought, you know, there are these, these issues, that they were saved solely by their works. You know, it was a works oriented righteousness. And I had been taught otherwise over the years. And so we really, really went into that. And after three hours, he said, you know, would you feel comfortable coming over next time? Maybe we'll smoke a cigar, have a glass of wine. I said, absolutely. So we did. And that went on for about six months. And all that time, I was still ministering at Pathways. And after, after six months, I had pretty much thrown everything at him, the kitchen sink. We talked about contraception because I would say things like, no matter what you tell me or show me, like, I'm gonna use contraception when I get married. I just want you to know that. And he was just like, he's like, just, let's just keep reading. Let's just keep talking, you know, And. And by the end of six months, it was like I just saw too much. Too much truth, too much beauty, too much goodness, too much unity, too much cohesion between tradition and scripture. And there's so many reasons, but. But I just remember looking at him and saying, what am I gonna do? And I know he knew what I was asking. And he said, number one, you have to trust God. Number two, you have to quit your job as a pastor. So I did. [00:33:39] Speaker A: What's it like going out and preaching in front of your congregation knowing, oh, crap, Right? [00:33:46] Speaker B: Well, you know what's funny? [00:33:47] Speaker A: You're a month away from changing. [00:33:48] Speaker B: What's interesting is I would say that Pathways had already started to act and look like an ancient church. We would have ancient Prayers, ancient music, like liturgical leanings. You know, we would literally break bread on stage or the loaf of bread, and. [00:34:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:05] Speaker B: You know. [00:34:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:06] Speaker B: And so I just felt like I was getting the real thing, you know, it was like we were already doing this. Wow. We're already leaning these ways. We have this desire. Right. For connection with the historical church. [00:34:17] Speaker A: Did you. Did you tell the whole congregation? [00:34:19] Speaker B: I didn't. Nope. I. I told the staff and never was allowed to talk again. You know, that was it. In front of people. And so, you know, it wasn't like any bad blood. It was just, hey, I'm moving in this direction. And those who were seeking in the congregation, who I was friends with, who knew several people became Catholic that went down that road themselves, they would meet me for coffee and say, tell me what's going on? Why are you making this decision? What are the big drivers? You know, so we'd have the conversation, and it's what I was looking for. And they would be like, I think I'm looking for that too. [00:34:52] Speaker A: Wow. [00:34:52] Speaker B: So. [00:34:53] Speaker A: Wow. You know, I always tell if I'm talking to someone who's on the fence with all this stuff, you know, if they're loving the Lord against them. That's the infinitely important point of unity. [00:35:01] Speaker B: Right. [00:35:01] Speaker A: You know, let's just dive into that. I love how Shapi, probably in a lot of things, he cleared up. He's like, we actually think the same on the most essential issues. I don't think I'm saving myself. [00:35:10] Speaker B: You know, he would often say, jeremy, you don't know this, but you have a very Catholic heart. He would say, your heart is Catholic. Your love for souls, everything orienting around that, like. And so I took that and it stayed with me even when I went to work for Focus and I started to learn more, and they really helped me to get formed as a Catholic and to learn the faith. But there was always those instincts. And chap. You would say, trust those instincts. That's the Holy Spirit inside of you. Even if you see something off in the church in practice, or a spirit or a tone or be patient, be kind, helped nurture it, help bring it back in alignment, you know? [00:35:50] Speaker A: Amen. I love. I mean, the church is the most beautiful mess. I have the rare weird job of being a Catholic evangelist. This show is like the thing I do in the Psychos. I love it. I love talking to you. I love talking to people. You know, I go out and preach the gospel at churches every week. And I was in ecumenical gathering recently, and my friend Pat Lancione has introduced me. He's a Catholic evangelist. What? [00:36:18] Speaker B: Those two words don't usually go hand in hand. [00:36:20] Speaker A: I've never heard of such a thing, you know, but it is the. If you have the right patience, it is the ripest field for evangelization in history. Because there's people showing up. That's one of the reasons we're doing this core confirmation program. There's a generation of young people showing up in class who have an openness because it's in their Catholic DNA to the gospel, and they're there, but they have no lived experience. Or they hear words like, jesus loves you and likes you. It's like. But they're sitting there ready to hear it because of the guardrails religion put on their lives. Because it's not all bad to go through the motions if that's all you have, because at least you can then show up and be evangelized. But. But, dude, it does. It requires. You just gotta love the flock, you know, and be patient as you go in and see if people are showing up unevangelized and they're obsessing on veils or just go through the motions and be like, yeah, I go to Mass and I sleep with my girlfriend and I smoke weed. It's like, okay, I'm gonna love you. I'm glad you're here. Let's talk about the Lord who demands your whole life. Dude, what was the toughest thing? What felt most like, okay, I'm on the inside, you know, do whatever he tells you. You know, I did it, Lord, and it feels like I'm in an ice bath. [00:37:41] Speaker B: Ironically, the do whatever he tells you comes from someone pretty special. I think her name is Mary. Something about Mary that was my greatest hurdle and my greatest joy having come from. You know, I mentioned my parents divorce when I was young. I just grew up, you know, we were poor and a bad neighborhood, and I had no idea about those things because you're a kid. And my parents didn't really fight in front of us. So the day I came home from school, there was a moving van in my driveway. Was how I found out that my mom and my brother and I were leaving. It caused, you know, some trust issues with women. I'll put it that way. My dad hadn't done anything worthy of. He wasn't abusive, he wasn't having affairs. [00:38:25] Speaker A: He wasn't a dream mama decided. [00:38:28] Speaker B: My mom had decided. And, you know, I think at a young age, I just. There was a breach of trust with women in general, and that continued Through. Through high school and college, where besides the sexual outlet, I really didn't know why I would need a relationship with a woman. Wow. And. And. And so the greatest hurdle to all of this Catholic thing was the role of Mary. Well, in the person of Mary. And I just thought it was overdone. I thought it was an abuse of, you know, putting her on the same level as Jesus or higher, you know, by calling her the Mother of God. You know, Jesus is not the fullness of the Trinity. You know, he is. He is divine. But I struggled with that. A lot of evangelicals struggle with that title, the Mother of God. You know, it feels higher than God. You know, that was an affront. That was an offense. [00:39:22] Speaker A: You know, it was actually titled given to defend the divinity of Jesus and the council. [00:39:27] Speaker B: I know, right. But when you think of it and you hear it without knowing that, it sounds like, oh, God, as a mother, you know, I could see that. So I. God knew I struggled with that. And he also knew I struggled in trusting women and relationships and, And. And so when I. When I just come back to the church and everything was still very tentative, meaning, I'm not sure I'm going to do this. Even after I had joined Focus, I remember I joined the fellowship of Catholic University students didn't know a soul other than Curtis Martin. I drove myself from Denver to Madison, Wisconsin, where our summer training was like, you know. [00:40:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:09] Speaker B: And adoration really freaked me out. Just seeing so many people bow down to what looked. Must have looked like the golden calf. Looked like back in the day, this gold monstrance comes out, and everyone's like, heads are down. And you're like, oh, my gosh, if that's not Jesus, this absolutely is idolatry. [00:40:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:25] Speaker B: You know? [00:40:25] Speaker A: Yeah. 100% that. [00:40:28] Speaker B: And then Mary, right? It's just Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary. And I'm like, you know, so one day I went. I went. While I was at training, I went to the chapel and, you know, this. This happened. I mean, I just have to tell it like it happened. I'm sitting in the chapel and my eyes are closed, and I'm just trying to kind of center myself and hear from God. And all of a sudden, this. Almost like someone walked past you. And I caught a fragrance, and the fragrance was. I was, like, doused with roses. Okay. It was, like, beautiful, perfect smell, you know, And I opened my eyes because I thought some, like, attractive girl has just walked by or something, you know, with a perfume. And I'm literally looking around and there's nobody Else in the chapel. I'm like, that's weird. Closed my eyes again, and it happened a second time. Wow. And I didn't know in that moment what was going on. It wasn't until the next day or later that afternoon, we were doing something, and I shared with one of my friends because I thought I was going to sound like a crazy person. I'm like, it was my friend Thomas. And I said, something happened in the chapel that I need you to tell you about. Do you know anything about this? Because you're learning about all these Catholic things from very Catholic people at Focus, right? [00:41:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:37] Speaker B: And he just started laughing like this roar of laughter. And he said, that's our Blessed Mother. I don't know why or what, but she's trying to get your attention. I want you to know it's her. So that's what started this process. And what. What ended up happening is I really now just. I just have, like. Mary just has such a special place in my faith and in my heart and in my life. [00:42:00] Speaker A: Wow. [00:42:00] Speaker B: Because she was a woman I can trust, I could find. Finally met a woman that I could fully trust. [00:42:06] Speaker A: Praise God. [00:42:06] Speaker B: And she embodies everything that women were intended to be. [00:42:09] Speaker A: Wow. [00:42:10] Speaker B: And, you know, no one's perfect. I get that we as men fail. It's just that she is this, you know, and I've had some dreams about her and some. Just some amazing visions of Mary that, you know, she was the first person in my dream to welcome me into the kingdom. And she didn't say a word. She just put her hand out like this. I put my hand in hers, and she was leading me through the throng of people in the kingdom. And I had this. This was early on in my. In my journey. And I woke up and I felt like I audibly heard the words. Don't be afraid. She's leading you to me. Like, don't be afraid of my mom. She's leading you to me. That's where she was taking me to go see the king. [00:42:49] Speaker A: That's it, man. [00:42:50] Speaker B: Amazing. [00:42:51] Speaker A: That's epic. [00:42:52] Speaker B: I mean, that happened, right? I don't. I mean, people can say whatever they want. It's just. That's what happened. And, dude, ever since then, I wouldn't say that I have, like, a serious devotion necessary to marry. I struggle to pray the rosary. I still do. But, like, the rosary is more about the gospel. If you think about it. It is. Than it is Mary. But those, you know, it's all scriptural words, like Mary pondering all these things in her heart. Like, I can't help but feel like I just have all these affections for her in my heart. [00:43:20] Speaker A: How awesome. [00:43:21] Speaker B: You know, she's always in, like, the corner of my eye, basically. I can never shake her. She's always interceding for me, you know, [00:43:27] Speaker A: I want to say Hail Mary right now. This isn't the end of the interview, but why, why, why not pause for Hail Mary? Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. [00:43:39] Speaker B: Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. [00:43:43] Speaker A: Amen. All those words are from the Bible. [00:43:45] Speaker B: Amen. [00:43:45] Speaker A: I saw from the Magnificat and encounter with Elizabeth. And man, it's all right there except for the asking her to pray for us, which is like, I'd ask you to pray for me. And that's epic, man. Praise God. Okay, so what felt most like a cold bath in the experience. That's. That's a theological issue and experiential. Right. How did. Did you notice, like, the lack of community in small groups? Like, was this, was this an immediately painful thing or to take until, you know. [00:44:12] Speaker B: You know, if you remember, the Denver young adult community was pretty vibrant. It kind of stood out, I think, on a national stage. Like, wow, Denver has a lot going on. A lot of Steubenville grads would move to Denver. And so I feel like I got like, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't too bad. But, you know, as time went on and you get married and you have kids and just the lack of. Of Catholics being able to like, talk about their faith and talk about their love for God and their show their love for Jesus. You know, when you're, when you're evangelical, especially if you're part of a, like a four square church, it's totally okay to just raise your hands and just give glory to God and just do that expression without think wondering what people are thinking of you. You know, nobody in my parish would do that today. Right. It's just not. In fact, you're not even allowed to clap after the music, even if it's really good. You just got to be quiet and get. Get the heck out. [00:45:03] Speaker A: Yeah, [00:45:06] Speaker B: so those were. That was the cold bath. The cold bath was kind of like again, a little bit what feels like an over emphasis on the externals. Like, if the church truly is a hospital for sinners, it's got to be messy. And I feel like in the Catholic Church, even today, we over Sanitize it. It's be quiet. It's don't do this, don't do that. I mean, even around my own parish, there's signs everywhere of don't, don't, don't, don't, don't. You know, my kids get that. And they just can't wait to get out so they can go be kids and run and laugh and be loud. Right. [00:45:39] Speaker A: Honestly. Also, the Oron's hand position in prayer, which you find in the catacombs. I mean, there's something human about this. I mean, this is great, too. But, like, if someone lifts their hand in the air, why would you literally judge that person as being weird? Right, right. Like there's something wrong. [00:45:55] Speaker B: And unfortunately, that's where one of those. Even in the Catholic world, there's like, the Charismatic Catholic Renewal, you know, which I have a lot of affection for. [00:46:04] Speaker A: And they might judge people doing this. [00:46:06] Speaker B: I know all of those. Those guys, the ark and the dove and love their ministry, where the spirit came in 1967. And I think that's an important story. But. But then there's just this. This. What's the word? This chasm between that community and, like, let's say, like the Latin. Right? Community. [00:46:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:26] Speaker B: Right. [00:46:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:27] Speaker B: Like, it's sad in my mind, because there are different expressions of Catholicism. Both are totally valid and beautiful, but, like, they don't. [00:46:37] Speaker A: Amen. But if we're going to renew the church, dude, we gotta. People look in Catholic Twitter, dude. It's like people are lost in externals. There are people who are convinced that. And I'm not saying again, because God's infinite, some of these details also matter. Right. But there are people who are convinced if we just bring altar rails back, we will save the world. You know, if we pray in this particular way, we will save the world. And you're literally trying to find renewal for the world in external expressions and rubric changes. You are missing the heart of everything. You know, if people come back to the heart of everything, the rest will follow as details. [00:47:19] Speaker B: Right. [00:47:20] Speaker A: But we need to become the church of 33 again. This church that just encountered Jesus risen from the dead and is excited to tell people about it. The rest is absolutely. Details, important details, important, but infinitely small next to the infinite. He rose from the dead. He changed my life. And let's live that out in communities that actually care about each other. Because you're my brother. The Lord died for you. Oh, how do you become that church again? You know what? [00:47:49] Speaker B: You probably should think of it. I do think of it all the time. And it's the heart of what true tradition means. Right? Because tradition, like the word religion, those are viewed with. They're suspect to evangelical Christians. You know, it's like tradition, you know, is probably more of like a bad word than a good word. Maybe not entirely. I don't mean to blankets over generalize, but, you know, true tradition. What do they say? It's the. The living faith of the dead. You know, tradition. Traditionalism is the dead faith of the living, right? So it's not the worship of ashes, it's the preservation of fire. That's what true tradition is. It's not the worship of ashes. It's the preservation of fire. And I think that we don't see enough of that, right? It's the preservation of fire. What's the fire? The fire of the gospel, the fire of love, of the love of God for you and for them and for everybody you encounter. [00:48:43] Speaker A: It's the why of tradition. [00:48:44] Speaker B: It's the why. [00:48:45] Speaker A: Yeah, right. It's like. It's like marriage when you forget the love story. I gave a talk on this and I'm like, what are you left with? This old dude in the front row goes a to do list. I have to dos. Well, when you put the love story back, you also have the to dos. But they flow from love and they preserve love. It preserves the fire. Give me that Traditionalism and tradition. [00:49:06] Speaker B: True tradition. True tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. True tradition is the living faith of the dead. And traditionalism is the dead faith of [00:49:18] Speaker A: the living, where it becomes about the. The tradition separated from the reason for it. [00:49:22] Speaker B: And that's. And that's where the misperception of so many evangelical Christians, when they look at the Catholic Church, they see traditions of men. Didn't Jesus warn against the traditions of men, like the moat we build around outside of it? That's what the Jews had done, right? They've got Torah, then the Mishnah and the Talmud, and it was like, let's not even get close to breaking it. So let's create new laws. And then we end up worshiping those laws. We end up making those the Lord of our life. And we do that as Catholics. [00:49:50] Speaker A: And there's goods. I want to give credence to this too. Again, if kids show up for confirmation class who don't know the Lord, they're showing up because there's a structure in place, right? And there's an obligation to their ancestors, to the parents and to God, that even if I'm not my Heart doesn't know this. I fulfill the obligation. That's a good. That's a good thing. Yeah, but you got to grow from that good thing to the heart of the thing. Right? So, yeah, how do we become the church of 33 again? I think you could wave a wand. You have all power. [00:50:20] Speaker B: If I could wave a wand and I had all power. Right. You would want everybody to know God. You would want everyone to know Jesus. And there's a big difference, Chris, between knowing a lot about God and knowing God. And there's a very scary verse in Matthew 7, I believe, where he says, many will say to me, lord, Lord, on that day, didn't I do a thousand reboots? Didn't I? Right. [00:50:44] Speaker A: You're getting too close to home, buddy. [00:50:47] Speaker B: I'm kidding, but I'm saying for myself, didn't I start a thousand Bible studies? Didn't I do this? Didn't I name the Sikh conference? Didn't I? Right. And he'll say to those on that day, depart from me, I never knew you. Scary words from our Lord. Right? We never want to hear that. That I never knew you. And so the question becomes, how do you know that you know him, not just about him? Because I feel for those parents who just want to catechize their children, take them to CCD class. Do the things you're doing. Get them to Mass, like my mom did for me. [00:51:16] Speaker A: Yeah, but. [00:51:17] Speaker B: But as a. As a dad of four, like, you know, I still am thinking through and asking those questions of my own kids, sometimes in different. Using different words, like, do they know Jesus? Do they really know the Lord? These are four totally different independent souls. And have I gotten the Gospel in front of them to where they can respond to say, I don't. I don't only know Jesus. I love Jesus. You know, that's a parent's greatest desire, is that children will know the Lord. You know? [00:51:45] Speaker A: Amen. [00:51:46] Speaker B: Well, you know, how do you get the gospel in front of your kid? Like, there's probably more than one good answer. But, like, it starts with my example, right? Do I show up every day with joy when it's like when we're tired and trying to get everyone ready for school, like, helping with lunches and breakfast and like, hey, son, put a jacket on. Hey, remember to treat people with respect today. Respect your teachers, especially. Look for that lonely kid at the lunch table who doesn't everybody sit with. That's. That's who Jesus wants you to go and talk to. It's saying and being and doing those Things. And sometimes I go, literally, two of my kids have phones. Three of my kids have. Have phones now. And I will text them. And they hate when I do this Bible study at the table. Bring your Bible and journal at 10am Right. I'll text them the night before. Be prepared. [00:52:33] Speaker A: That's awesome. [00:52:33] Speaker B: And they just know, like, there's no out. Like, God's gonna have a Bible study at the kitchen table. Because, like, I need to get my pastor fix on, right? I need that. You know, my congregation is now four. You know, my wife doesn't even come, [00:52:49] Speaker A: so. [00:52:49] Speaker B: So it's like the four of them and me and like, their journals and their Bibles, and I'm. I'm just share my heart with him about the. Why when you go to mass? I told him this the other day. And actually, one of my sons was like, that was really cool. I'll never look at holy water the same way. When they come into mass, I said, remember that when you put your hand in the holy water, we come in St. Thomas More and you cross yourself. You're entering the mystery. They're like, the mystery. I'm like, yeah, that's what it's all about, the mystery. The mystery of salvation, the mystery of God's love revealed from the Old Testament, fulfilled in the new. And that the waters remember the parting. And they're like, yeah, when Moses, you know, led the people through. That's what you're doing when you're. When you're touching the holy water, you're reminding yourself of your baptism, that you cross through the waters from death to life, and you're entering into the mystery. Hallelujah. So now all of a sudden, I'm like, mass is something really totally sacred and wholly other when you're entering the mass. So now just getting that on their minds, like, it still doesn't always stick, right? [00:53:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:53:47] Speaker B: Yeah. But even for myself, I need to do that and go, I'm entering the mystery. [00:53:52] Speaker A: Amen. [00:53:52] Speaker B: And I love the definition of, like, the Catholic understanding of mystery. It's not like something you can't know. Too often we think of mystery that way. I don't know. It's a mystery. It's not that in the Catholic world, In the Catholic world, it's not something that you can't know. It's something you can't know enough of. [00:54:07] Speaker A: You can't bite a wall. It will not fit. [00:54:13] Speaker B: It's something you can't know enough of. So when I come here, that's why the saints, we hold them up. Because the reason they're so humble and they have so much humility is because, like, the more they learned about God and knew him intimately, the more they realized how far they had to go. There's still so far to go. There's a teachability to them no matter how far they got. [00:54:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:33] Speaker B: So there was a humility of like, I'm just a pilgrim on the journey with a lot to learn. And it's like, no, you're Saint Francis of Assisi. [00:54:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:39] Speaker B: You sold everything you had. You've got thousands of friars in your lifetime. You've, you know, Seriously amazing. [00:54:45] Speaker A: Dude, I gotta add this, too. We gotta become a church that says the obvious again, right? You grew up not hearing that God loves you and God likes you. And there's some. I mean, there's plenty of people in the church who say, yeah, you gotta be based, man. You gotta be like, give it to people straight. What's that mean? The first thing we have to give straight to people is that almighty God has given his heart to you and wants your entire heart and your life and soul back because he loves you enough to die for you on a cross. Gosh, what a tragedy that we can go to church for years and years where it's almost presumed. That's like a dad presuming, well, yeah, I go to work every day. Of course I love my kids. I don't have to say it. No, you have to say it every day. And you have to tell these kids, yeah, we do this because almighty God loves you. For God so loved the world. So loved you. My kids sitting across the table from me. [00:55:33] Speaker B: And we may know John 3:16, but we don't know John 3:17. He didn't come into the world to condemn the world, but the world might be saved through him. Right. And so just. Just. I think. I think the church, you know, needs to just be reminded that, like, the whole reason we exist is to. Is to help bring the gospel to people that don't know Jesus. And to do that, we first of all need to have been ambushed by him. We need to have been taken by him, you know, and we're all in process. I mean, doesn't mean you don't struggle with mortal sin. It doesn't mean you don't struggle with. With doubt. You know, you're in process. But that doesn't disqualify you from sharing the gospel either. You know, someone said, at its base level, evangelization is nothing more than one bum telling another bum where to go find food. Right? Because if you're Aware of your need for a savior and you're poor in spirit. Right. Like we all are. That's why the prostitutes and the tax collectors and alcoholics and. Right. Tax collectors were at his table. Why? They all knew their need. It was the self righteous. It was the religious people who tended to not go to the table. And he said, how I longed to Jerusalem to gather you like a hen gathers her chicks. But you were unwilling. [00:56:46] Speaker A: You know, I love my pastor, Father Brian Larkyman. He talks about, you know, when we forget that that's the why of the church, it's about Jesus. It's like we become weird, just hard. Stop right there. It just gets weird. Like, what are you guys doing? What are you obsessing on? [00:57:03] Speaker B: Right. [00:57:04] Speaker A: Why are you obsessing on that? Their assessment is you guys are strange and they're right. [00:57:12] Speaker B: So just. I never quite finished closing the loop on how do you know that you know someone? Because that's really important to, like, ask yourself out there. I know a lot about God. How do I know that I know God? And that's where it enters, you know, a very intimate, personal experience of faith. Most Catholics are like, hey, that's, that's personal. Don't ask me to share that. You know, but in that intimate personal space, if it exists, what is that dialogue like with God? You know, like, I wonder if a lot of Catholics even pray personally to God. Is it all just Hail Marys and Our Fathers and Glory? Be like, do you ever sing to the Lord a new song and just have conversations with him? Yeah, right. Like. [00:57:52] Speaker A: Like, yeah, man. [00:57:53] Speaker B: He cares about the details of your life, the little things that you don't think Almighty God cares about. He knows about and cares about. And it takes a lot of faith to trust that to be true. [00:58:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:58:03] Speaker B: He cares that your car is in the garage and doesn't work. He cares that, like, you know, these little. The minutia, you know, of life. [00:58:10] Speaker A: I love. I love Solanus Casey. I heard a recording of him once. He was horrible at playing violin, but there's a recording someone grabbed to him, like in a chapel late at night, just, just playing to Jesus and singing [00:58:23] Speaker B: and making a joyful noise. [00:58:25] Speaker A: Just knowing the Lord delights in this guy stealing away from everybody, thinking no one's got a recording device, thinking he's going to be saint. That's beautiful. I was in a chapel with my daughter Clementine the other day and no one, no one else is in there. And we just started to sing. We just sang. What the heck were oh, I love you Lord, and I lift my voice. And to hear my voice as a dad. Sing that with my daughter. [00:58:48] Speaker B: Just. [00:58:49] Speaker A: And to think of the Father just delighting in hearing our voices. He just delights in us. [00:58:53] Speaker B: That's beautiful. And I used to do that with my kids when they were young. Now my daughter's 14 and won't sing with me anymore. But I have video of us doing some of that together. Yeah. But I think one last thing I would add to that is that. Is that we've all experienced. You know, I quoted Augustine earlier saying that. That God had one son without sin, but none without suffering, is that everyone out there has been through heartache and pain and loss and grief and maybe going through that right now. And I just want to say that, like, the Lord knows your pain. He knows that place right now, and he knows you. And that's why he can say that he loves you, because he knows what hurts you. And he wants you to know it also hurts him. And what hurts the heart of the Father are all those children out there that are deceived, that have bought into a lie, that have. That don't know who he really is, how good he really is. That's what hurts. The heart of the Father is his wayward children and that he's called the church to go be salt and light and the city set upon a hill to go and reflect his love. Like, look past the music, look past the externals, whatever that looks like. Look past the lifestyle and love the person, love the soul, you know, show them the heart of the Father, you know, That's. That's. If the church can just start by being a little more patient and kind with people. How we would change the world today if the church were known as Christians are really patient and kind. They're great listeners. Rather than, like, I have all the answers for everything figured out, you know? [01:00:28] Speaker A: Amen. I want to circle back to that and pray on that. Okay. Especially if someone's watching and feels like I still don't get it. I want you to lead us in a prayer to just invite the Lord in a new way. [01:00:40] Speaker B: Absolutely. [01:00:41] Speaker A: Because evangelization's got to end there. Right. And I always pray. I pray like that constantly. And I've been evangelizing. I evangelize myself at every event that I'm doing right. It has to go to do. I believe in the power of Jesus and can I invite him into my heart and in my life right now? Right. It's just hard to resist going every now. But these are important questions. One, how do people get in touch with you, man? Because like, I know you. You preach, you. You're also a marketing company. That's phenomenal. That if someone's got a business that wants to use that or someone wants to book you to do something. [01:01:08] Speaker B: I'm the most anti marketing person. I try to make it really hard for people to find me. I have no ministry platform or website or anything. I am thinking about going into some of that. [01:01:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:01:19] Speaker B: But thelittlej.com thelittlej letter J. Thelittlej.com is my website. [01:01:26] Speaker A: Awesome. [01:01:26] Speaker B: They can reach me, find me there. [01:01:28] Speaker A: Awesome. Community. It's a huge part of evangelization. You find yourself as part of this living, beautiful church. I mean, my own conversion is when my parents dragged me to a youth retreat and the joy in the room blew my mind. I found myself immersed in this. In this broader thing. Right. It's like, oh, I want to be a living one. I want to be with these people. How do we bring about a renewal within the Catholic Church with connection with actual fellowship, not just gathering in the same place to worship, which is part of it. The Acts of the Apostles talked about temple worshiping and gathering in homes. Every event I go to, I push for people to be in small groups, lead people with resources. I know it only goes so far, you know? [01:02:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:02:13] Speaker A: Again, it's become the magic wand. [01:02:14] Speaker B: Yeah. It's becoming harder and harder because it's becoming harder and harder to make a living, to be able to provide for your family and, you know, the haves and have nots. That. That polarity is never been greater. I think in our nation that's an issue, but not here to talk about that today. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's really difficult to build community today, especially in a Catholic context. You know, I pushed the midweek service in Hawaii, and now a bunch of parishes out there are doing midweek services. [01:02:44] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [01:02:45] Speaker B: Yeah. And sharing resources just for fellowship. Potluck. You know, if you're gonna do a potluck, like, Hawaii is the world's best place for potluck. [01:02:53] Speaker A: I miss poi, man. I miss poi so bad. I just can't get poi. My Hawaiian friends just send me some poi to reallife Catholic. Go to RealLifeCatholic.com you'll see the address. [01:03:01] Speaker B: Shoyu chicken right now. [01:03:04] Speaker A: Don't ship the Pokemon. [01:03:08] Speaker B: But I think community has to be intentional, you know? And I know that there's so, again, it's like so many things on your List as a dad of four, like, I understand there's just, you know, the margin reserve is. There's not a lot left. But, you know, our parish does a great job of creating just enormous opportunities for parishioners to get involved, to get to know people. [01:03:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:33] Speaker B: Love what Father Andy Dolan's has done at St. Thomas More. So I don't know what the answer is other than like, I long for that community more. I have a fire pit in my backyard, a pretty nice fire pit. And man, I just want some guys to come over and smoke a cigar, maybe, maybe have a drink. I'll come over and. Just because it used to happen more, maybe before all the, all the kids and the, the responsibilities, but those seem to be few and far between anymore. And I think that that's where the real substance of Koinonia and community come from for me. [01:04:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:04:06] Speaker B: And I'm longing for that too. So if you have a, if you have the answer, please let me know what it is. [01:04:11] Speaker A: I hear you, man. It's. I mean, it can't be a top down thing. It's got to. Well, it's got to be both and. Right. But all Catholics have to own, like, I could fix this and maybe, maybe [01:04:23] Speaker B: like a call to, like, I need to make myself available for some of this to happen. You know, I can host, I can do something. Right. Like sometimes it's just that little. Yes. Opening that door and then God will do the rest. [01:04:34] Speaker A: There's a lot of people who think, like I call people to start small groups and their first thought is, when we die, good people go to heaven and bad people are split into small groups. So I don't really want to, I don't want to be part of that. But it's a misperception, right. When you describe it as getting together and having a cigar and just being intentional about some next level fellowship. Like we're going to actually talk about how we're doing. [01:04:54] Speaker B: Yeah, what can we pray for? [01:04:56] Speaker A: Yeah, what can we pray for? It's as simple as that. And if that's in a disciplined way, and there's months where, I mean, Hebrews Paul tells us, don't neglect gathering together. [01:05:05] Speaker B: I think this is one of the biggest reasons why so many people have left the church. [01:05:09] Speaker A: Lack of fellowship. [01:05:10] Speaker B: Lack of fellowship, but also lack of authenticity. Like it doesn't feel real, like it can't feel canned or forced or staged, you know, and that organic kind of relationship is a blessing and a gift and, and it used to happen, I think, in the church all the time in those settings like you talked about, just walking in and people had joy. I don't know if that would be the case if you walked into middle school ministry or high school ministry today with their phones. Right. [01:05:33] Speaker A: And that's got to be up to all of us. Again, this can't be a top down fix. And I think of the, I mean the flagship place where this has happened in the evangelical world, the Protestant world would be Pastor Rick Warren. Saddleback church grew from 6,000 to 9,000 small groups during COVID You know, Pastor Rick is like, every Sunday is like pushing it and you know, I'm trying to push all the stuff that we have going on with our daily anchor. There's also reflection questions if you want to gather. It's got to be a constant language from leadership. But the people eventually have to catch on and say, I have to be part of this renewal. It just won't happen without me. I can fix this. And it's not rocket science. If I make it rocket science, I just ruin the whole dang thing. I don't have to be a full time trained missionary to do this. It's just, come on over, let's, let's share life together and let's pray for. [01:06:19] Speaker B: Two of my, two of my kids are in high school and I have to just say, like the two groups that have really stood out like from a parents perspective of moving and shaking and doing things is fca, the fellowship of Catholic athletes, I think, and young life. I mean, they're just so great at outreach and having praise and worship nights. And that's awesome, you know, and, you know, and this is kind of a catch 22 because it's when Catholic kids encounter that kind of fellowship and programming that they're going, this seems to be where it's at, dad, not at the Catholic Church. So it creates this like challenge. Right, right. So I'm hoping my kids are grounded enough in their Catholic faith to go and partake and enjoy young life and fca, but hopefully also maybe, you know, eventually bring some people. Yeah, some people this way too. [01:07:07] Speaker A: You're either Luther and say, I'm out of here, you're St. Francis and say, this is a total mess and I'm going to stay here and change it by becoming something different within the Mass. [01:07:14] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. [01:07:16] Speaker A: God, help us to lead people to renewal. Help us to become the church of 33 again. Lead us in prayer for the people who are watching, thinking, I want to know on a deeper level. I want to know Jesus. I want to invite him in. [01:07:33] Speaker B: Father in heaven, thank you for this time and thank you that we can share everything with you and with each other. Our doubts, our fears, our struggles, our brokenness, our hopes, our dreams, our ambitions. Whether they're selfish or not, we can at least put it all out there and nothing scandalizes you. [01:07:53] Speaker A: Amen. [01:07:54] Speaker B: Thank you, Lord, that, that you know us on such a deep personal level. You know us better than we know ourselves. I just pray for anyone out there right now who is suffering, who is going through a trial in their marriage with an estranged family member, any relationship that is in need of reconciliation and repair and healing. I pray for that in Jesus name right now. And thank you, God, that you do care at a very micro level about the details of our lives. And we just thank you that you love us the way you do, that you're steady, that your love is patient and kind. It's not condemning. Your voice, the tone of your voice is gentle with us and fatherly and just. Thank you, Lord, so much for this moment. I ask you to bless Chris. I ask you to bless real life Catholic and all he has going on, Lord, that he would really feel the difference and experience what it feels like to rely on you and to let you drive. [01:09:03] Speaker A: Yes, Lord. [01:09:04] Speaker B: And to provide every need, everything he needs to accomplish your will, to do what you've asked him to do. So thank you for my brother, in Jesus name, amen. [01:09:14] Speaker A: I thank you, Lord, for Jeremy. Continue to lead him. Let him fall deeper and deeper in love with you and use him to be a light to the world, a light to the church and an agent for renewal. And I just want to go even a little next level just to lead in prayer. And feel free to add to this too. Just if you're watching right now and you just. The idea of Jesus being personal and savior and Lord is kind of foreign to you. You've gone through the motions. I just want you to just rest in the presence of Jesus right now for a minute and just think of him looking at you with great love from the cross. And in that space, I want you to repeat after me. Lord Jesus, you're the love I was born to find. You're here offering me your life, asking for mine in return. I'm serious. Repeat after out loud after me. You've given me the freedom to say no. I use my freedom to say yes. I surrender all I am to you. I renounce Satan, sin, the spirit of despair and the lie that I am unlovable. I forgive others and I forgive myself of my worst sin. And I ask you to forgive me and those who have hurt me. Jesus, you are the Lord of the universe. I invite you to be savior and lord of my life. I say yes to you. Show me what new life is. Amen. [01:11:15] Speaker B: Amen. [01:11:18] Speaker A: Thank you, Lord. Bro, thanks for. Thanks for praying with me. Thanks for praying with us. [01:11:22] Speaker B: Thank you. [01:11:23] Speaker A: I love you guys so much. I'm praying for you. Keep praying for me, dude. What a grace to be with you. [01:11:28] Speaker B: You as well. [01:11:29] Speaker A: What a gr. Seriously, what a grace. This is the stuff. Like this is the best stuff in the world to talk about. I feel like I'm hanging out with a bro with the empty tomb right there with a cup of coffee, maybe a cigar. [01:11:40] Speaker B: Great. [01:11:42] Speaker A: God bless you. [01:11:43] Speaker B: Thanks for having me. [01:11:44] Speaker A: Yeah, dude, Happy back for sure. See you next time.