Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: 80% more men than women die by suicide. There is a mental health collapse happening among men. So much for male privilege. Guys. There's a lot of complicated reasons for it, but the solutions are actually simple for helping men and changing a dangerous trend in society. We're going to unearth those solutions today that you could put into practice in your life to help the men who you love in your life or. Or if you're a parent of a son, to help your son or if you're a grandparent of a grandson. Guys, you can't afford to miss today's episode of the Chris Stefanik Show.
Welcome to the Chris Stefanik Show. We are here every week to give you the tools and inspiration you need to live your everyday life. Everyday life with joy.
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Guys, everyone talks about the patriarchy and bringing down the patriarchy and male privilege. But did you know there's a privilege that women have always enjoyed that's far more fundamental than the privilege of throughout history? A man just being able to go and get any job that he wants. It's a privilege around being human and happy.
And the numbers prove it that men feel shut out from this, quote, privilege because men are facing a disproportionate massive mental health crisis like we never have before and we actually need to address it and we need to fix it now. Quick trigger warning. In this interview, we use some phrases like patriarchy and male privilege. I want to assure you that neither I nor my guest are leftist deconstructionists. All right? I don't think we need to, quote, take down a patriarchy for women to be able to enjoy things that men have always enjoyed, like the ability to get a job or to vote. Nor do I think we need to take down the matriarchy or dismantle feminine privilege for men to be able to enjoy things that women have always enjoyed that we need to start enjoying to avoid the mental health collapse that men are currently experiencing. What we need is a more sane world where everyone can thrive in our differences, which are real and complementarity.
This is going to be a wild ride today with Dr. Alexandria Corsol on the Christophanik Show. Buckle up, dive in. However you want to say it. Oh, quick warning for you who are banter haters. Fast forward the next eight minutes where we banter about how she met her now fiance and went through a great spiritual journey of letting go of her control to be able to enter into a healthy relationship. Unless, however, you're in the dating phase of your life where you definitely don't want to fast forward that banter because there's some serious gems.
All right, let's dive in.
Dr. Alexandria Corsol.
[00:03:28] Speaker B: Hello.
[00:03:29] Speaker A: Welcome to the show. Yeah. It's really good to have you. Thank you. I'm blessed, honored that you're here. Congratulations. I see the beautiful rock.
[00:03:37] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:03:37] Speaker A: Congratulations on the coming wedding.
[00:03:39] Speaker B: Thank you. It happened. We did.
[00:03:42] Speaker A: Praise God. Yes. Where did you meet him again?
[00:03:46] Speaker B: We went to college together, so a lot of our friends are friends and our friends are married, and we've been at a lot of weddings together.
[00:03:52] Speaker A: How many years ago did you go to college?
Boy?
[00:03:55] Speaker B: A while ago.
Graduated 2014.
[00:03:59] Speaker A: So the relationship kind of. 2014? Yeah. So you've known this guy for 11 years?
[00:04:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:03] Speaker A: When did you start dating after knowing him?
[00:04:05] Speaker B: Two years ago. A little over two years ago.
[00:04:07] Speaker A: It took him that long to figure out that you were or take you long. Who was the slow one?
[00:04:12] Speaker B: We just like, we're ships passing. I dated someone while he was single. He dated someone. I moved to Colorado. He moved to California and Chicago.
[00:04:22] Speaker A: And did you have a moment of like, oh, wait, you're the one?
[00:04:28] Speaker B: Yes. It, like, blew my mind. I was like, wait a minute. Do I like you like you? Yeah. And I was texting all my friends who were friends with them, and I'm like, why do I kind of think, do I?
[00:04:39] Speaker A: Am I crazy? What's going on? That's so cool.
[00:04:42] Speaker B: And then it just went from there, and it was really easy. Yeah. The friends to lovers thing, which.
[00:04:46] Speaker A: That's the best kind.
[00:04:47] Speaker B: It's great. I've always heard about it. I was like, we'll see. But it's the best.
[00:04:51] Speaker A: You have foundation. That's, like, calm.
[00:04:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:54] Speaker A: Was he shocked when he found out you were interested in him?
[00:04:57] Speaker B: No, we both kind of like. He came out for a ski weekend because we have shared friends.
One of my best friends. One of his best friends are married. So he did a ski weekend. He came out, and we were both kind of feeling that thing.
[00:05:10] Speaker A: Oh, that's easy. The Lord made it easy.
[00:05:13] Speaker B: Yeah. And then, like, at the end of the weekend, we were kind of like.
Like, should we. We just kind of were talking more and started FaceTiming, and then.
[00:05:23] Speaker A: That's awesome.
[00:05:23] Speaker B: Yeah. Kind of expressed that. And then one.
It just happened. So naturally. Honestly, it. Like, when it happened, I was like, whoa, I didn't expect this. And then from there, it just happened. And now I'm getting married, so that's crazy.
[00:05:36] Speaker A: I know. Yeah, it's exciting. My wife and I were friends first, and. And I had no idea she was interested in me because I always thought she was just next level unreachable. She's like a year and a half older than me, which at that time in my life, I was like a hairless little college freshman who's like, hey, guys, like, barely. Barely out of puberty. And she was a junior, and she was like, really just cool and mature and, you know.
But then she thought of me as, like a. As a friend and, like, kind of like, there's Chris. He's a nice, happy guy.
[00:06:04] Speaker B: Little old Chris.
[00:06:05] Speaker A: Yeah, it was the same thing, which over time, it was like, whoa, hey, hold on.
But then I had no clue that she was interested in me, because I still thought she was. I still think she's out of my league, but that's another story.
But people panic about will I meet a person? And the way you just described that. And this is frequently the story I hear from people. I stopped looking. I calmed down.
[00:06:25] Speaker B: And the Lord brought exactly what happened. I was fighting too hard and forcing it too much because I was feeling anxious about being able to get married and have children. And there was just a moment where God was telling me, you need to just like, let me take care of this. Trust me. And I stopped looking and dating.
And then it happened. And then I. You know, I tell people. I'm like, that's when it happened. And people always said that to me, and I'm like, you know, but that really is what happened.
[00:06:56] Speaker A: You know, I'm like, ugh.
[00:06:59] Speaker B: Like, what I'm saying to you is what I hated hearing, but it actually is true, so.
[00:07:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
Cause I don't wanna be patient.
[00:07:06] Speaker B: I know, exactly.
[00:07:07] Speaker A: I don't wanna trust that there's maybe some hand guiding.
[00:07:09] Speaker B: 100% right.
[00:07:11] Speaker A: And then, you know, if it doesn't happen, there's still a hand God in your life. And that's another thing we really don't want to hear.
[00:07:16] Speaker B: Yes. But that was the place I got to too, was just, I don't know, this big fear of what I want more than anything not happening. And I was being driven in all my decision making with dating by fear instead of free will, you know? So once I got that peace with God and gave it to him, it was like every choice I was making was my choice. It wasn't out of fear. And then everything kind of falls into place, you know.
[00:07:42] Speaker A: How did you make that shift? Cause that sounds like that's a radical shift to make.
[00:07:45] Speaker B: Yeah, God, it like, truly wasn't really me. I think I was feeling really anxious about it and having a lot of feelings and a lot of different, you know, positive and negative experiences with dating. And I just kept saying, God, you know, please, please, please do this for me. Make this happen for me in my timeline on my time. And he just. When God speaks to me, it's really loud. And I just heard him say, stop, you know, like, just trust me.
It might not be on your timeline. It might like, you can't plan this. You need to let it happen and trust me and you need to enjoy. I think the way I.
What I was hearing was there's so much love in my life and I'm so hyper fixated on finding this type of love, but I need to just appreciate the love that exists in my life. And if I never get that life, that, that love, I'll be sad, but I have so much love around me that I'll be good.
[00:08:44] Speaker A: That's awesome.
[00:08:44] Speaker B: You know? Yeah. And then, boom, in roll is my now fiance.
[00:08:49] Speaker A: So that's awesome.
[00:08:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
And we both say, like, the timing was perfect for both of us too, in hindsight, because had we dated at any other point in time and hadn't gone through our own healing and growth and it just wouldn't, we're very grateful. Even though at the time I was like, come on, God, where is my guy? I'm actually very glad in hindsight that it happened when it did.
[00:09:12] Speaker A: So praise God.
[00:09:13] Speaker B: Gotta trust God.
He tells me that a lot. He's like, see, I told you.
[00:09:17] Speaker A: You know, Totally.
I've heard the Lord really speak clearly to my heart a few times, and it usually boils down to what you just summed up, which is basically God saying, stop trying to do my job. Yes, you know, it's a slightly annoyed but loving tone, like, I'm God, you're not. Okay. Just remember that.
[00:09:34] Speaker B: That's.
[00:09:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:35] Speaker B: Stop confusing yourself with me and trust me, you know, because.
Yeah. Another element to that is there's never been a time in my life where there's been suffering or something hasn't gone my way, where it doesn't end up making sense and end up being the right thing for me and lead me where I need to be.
[00:09:53] Speaker A: So ultimately, it's gonna happen with death when it's gonna be like, this really doesn't make sense. And then two seconds after we open our eyes on the other side, it's gonna be like, oh, it made sense 1,000%. Yeah. But there's that pattern too. It's as old as Abraham and Isaac.
Here's your dream, Isaac. Abraham prayed his whole life for his child, a son. Here it is. And the Lord says, put him on the altar and sacrifice him. And he says, no, you don't have to. I'm giving him back. And this is you with, okay, Lord, I give this up. This is painful. It's not an easy thing. And then he says, okay, here it is.
[00:10:23] Speaker B: Yeah. It's like not having control gives people anxiety. So not being able to control. Not having control is a major source of anxiety for people. So when you want something really bad and part of it's in your control, I can put myself out there. I can do it. But the other part is, you gotta kinda wait for.
That's anxiety provoking. And so I just had to let go of control.
[00:10:45] Speaker A: Gosh, aren't you so glad God didn't give you what you wanted when you wanted it? And then you were having a controlling relationship with a boyfriend, which would have either crashed and burned or been a really funky marriage for a long time.
[00:10:57] Speaker B: 1,000%. Yeah.
[00:10:59] Speaker A: That's epic.
[00:10:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:00] Speaker A: And that was some great bonus content because it has nothing to do with what we were talking about. Well, that does have something to do with it.
[00:11:05] Speaker B: When we're together, we're gonna be.
[00:11:07] Speaker A: Yeah, we could be here for three hours. I didn't take my ADD meds this morning. You did.
So this will be somewhat. You can tether me to the conversation when I float off, but I'll generally keep track of it.
[00:11:19] Speaker B: I'll go with you, but I'll do my best. Yeah.
[00:11:21] Speaker A: We're talking about men. We are. There is an unprecedented mental health collapse today, and anyone could see this. Anyone raising a kid can see her sending kids to school, but it disproportionately impacts men.
[00:11:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:36] Speaker A: What's that look like? How bad is it? I mean, I could say that from a gut sense, people have a feeling that men are kind of isolated and alone. So what's going on?
[00:11:44] Speaker B: Well, I updated my statistics to current day.
I wrote my dissertation on masculinity, obviously, years ago, maybe five, six years ago.
[00:11:55] Speaker A: Is it worse today than when you wrote it then?
[00:11:57] Speaker B: It's hard to look at because it's so traumatizing. Thinking of the process. No, it's good. I look back and I'm like, I kind of did a good job here, but I couldn't look at it for a while.
[00:12:07] Speaker A: Oh, the actual dissertation was difficult to look at.
[00:12:09] Speaker B: The stats are worse. Yes.
Yeah. So I wanted to give an update. But when you say disproportionate, it's so disproportionate. I think everyone knows. Everyone has this awareness that, like, the stats show that.
I think a lot of people see it as men are the problem, you know, when you look at the stats, but really they don't understand the mental health behind it. Right.
So I'm going to read some stats, and then, you know, we can kind of talk more about where that comes from. So these statistics are based specifically on the US they're as updated to 2025 as possible, but you're usually looking at in 2023, and then they update it from there.
[00:12:51] Speaker A: So it might be even worse now.
[00:12:53] Speaker B: Yeah. So when I wrote my dissertation, I defended it in 2022. Started, you know, six years before that.
Men accounted for 70% of all suicides.
That number is raised to 80%. So just 10? Yeah, 10%. In just that amount of time, it
[00:13:12] Speaker A: rose 10% from an already miserable number. 80% of suicides are men.
[00:13:17] Speaker B: Yeah. And you have to. I mean, a lot of it has to do with what we're gonna talk about today. But there can be other factors for that too. But the concerning thing is when the numbers are so skewed in all of these statistics, there's something going on.
[00:13:31] Speaker A: Yeah. It's not a little skew.
[00:13:33] Speaker B: Yeah. So suicides for young men in particular have been on the rise since the late 1990s. So since 2010, the suicide rate for men alone, age 25 to 34, has increased 30%.
Women are more likely to report suicidal thoughts and attempt, but men are four times more likely to complete suicide than women.
Men represent over 90% of the prison population.
[00:14:06] Speaker A: Over 90%.
[00:14:08] Speaker B: 90% of homicide perpetrators are men from 1982 to 2025. So there's a really updated one.
There have been 155 mass shootings in the U.S. 149 of those were carried out by men alone, four female. And then the other two are male and female together. So just super disproportionate.
Approximately 92% of sexual abuse offenders are men.
Approximately 91% of victims of sexual assault are women. 9% are men.
[00:14:44] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:14:44] Speaker B: Men are more than likely than women to meet the criteria for a substance use disorder. And then the kind of issue with all this which drove my desire to do something about this is that women are nearly twice as likely as men to receive mental health treatment.
So, yeah.
[00:15:04] Speaker A: So I let some breath, because as I'm hearing these. My spine is stiffening.
[00:15:08] Speaker B: I'm like, yeah, yeah.
[00:15:10] Speaker A: My mouth's dropping open. I mean, that's crazy. I mean. Cause there's some degree to which our biological makeup and testosterone can account for that. I mean, testosterone can be a great thing. It can lead you to do really dumb things. It can lead you to do really great things, but it rarely leads you to do just unnoticeable things.
So that's part. But those stats, that's more than some
[00:15:35] Speaker B: testosterone when you're in the 90s, it's like, that's crazy. Something's going on.
[00:15:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:40] Speaker A: I wanna. I want to pick your brain and dig into why.
[00:15:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:45] Speaker A: First, I want to ask this. Why do you think no one cares?
[00:15:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:15:49] Speaker A: Because there's very. I mean, the reason I have you on here, A friend told me about you. I read your dissertation, and I'm thinking as I read it, like, this is something no one even talks about.
[00:15:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:00] Speaker A: Like 90%. These stats are staggering. And it's like there's a whole population.
Half the population is drowning, and no one's throwing life preservers and saying, these guys need help.
[00:16:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:12] Speaker A: Why do you think that is? And what got you caring about it? And thank you for caring about it.
[00:16:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, I care a lot about it.
[00:16:19] Speaker A: I want to take a quick moment here to ask you something really important.
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[00:17:52] Speaker B: I think there's a couple reasons I can't. I obviously care a lot about it. I can't necessarily speak for other people for why they don't, but I have some thoughts on maybe why people don't. I think the first is, like you mentioned earlier, there's this general awareness that the men are struggling, right?
But because of the stats you just heard, you know, when you're hearing about, you're seeing a lot of these mass shootings or these homicides or whatever, and you're seeing it's carried out by a man or whatever it might be, there's the natural assumption that, you know, the perpetrator of a sexual assault is a man. Like, people have that general idea, and it's natural for people to be like, what a monster, Right. And to not look at or seek to understand, like, the why.
And so I think, number one, people aren't aware of just how bad it is now, hopefully you are.
But then secondly, I think they don't understand the mental health aspect of it because I believe people are inherently good.
And that's just always how I've been. I've really struggled when, you know, when I watch a crime documentary on a serial killer or something, you're actually compassionate
[00:19:16] Speaker A: toward the serial killer.
[00:19:18] Speaker B: Sadly, like, no, I'm not saying that
[00:19:20] Speaker A: in an accusatory way. I'm just thinking I want to be more like you.
[00:19:22] Speaker B: Honestly, I usually. I mean, the way my brain works and I've always operated is I want to understand.
I just want to understand what led you to do this, because that's not. I can't ever imagine myself doing it, so I want to understand.
So I think people don't take the time to understand that underneath this Acting out behavior, this horrible behavior is actually typically pain.
Good people don't just do bad things. Things happen. And you either have support through that or you don't. And it shapes, you know, eventually where
[00:20:00] Speaker A: you lead to manner and pain.
[00:20:02] Speaker B: Yeah. So it's like looking at the event, and I like to dissect, like, how did we get here? Starting at childhood.
[00:20:10] Speaker A: I wonder if there's also this aspect. And I was reading. I read Vance's hillbilly Elegy, and it kind of shone a light on a population in the United States that just doesn't get much help, in part because they're white.
[00:20:23] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:23] Speaker A: I mean, the collapse of steel mills in the middle of the country, loss of jobs, rise of meth. And it's like, well, but here's a population that has, quote, privilege. And in some ways they have had privilege. Right. But when people associate that with a group, well, why should I help you?
[00:20:42] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:42] Speaker A: You're a white man.
[00:20:43] Speaker B: That.
That's a huge part of it that I think. And I think that's also the second thought I have on why people don't care is the people that are aware of it. Like, there's this kind of new term, I guess, of the male loneliness epidemic. That's all on social media. I mean, people are aware of now that men are actually struggling from a mental health perspective.
But I think there are.
I don't want to speak for women, but I think because of the stats you're seeing, and I think a lot of victims, maybe of men, because of their own wounds, kind of have this, like, why should I care? You did this thing, you know what I'm saying?
[00:21:29] Speaker A: Someone who misused power to hurt me.
[00:21:31] Speaker B: That.
[00:21:31] Speaker A: And they groupify that it's all men.
[00:21:34] Speaker B: Right.
[00:21:35] Speaker A: And what percent of women, again, have experienced unwanted sexual advances from a man that I'm gonna traumatizes?
[00:21:42] Speaker B: So I think it's one in six women have experienced some form of sexual assault. And I think it's one in eight have been raped. So it's a lot. That's humongous. I could have those stats wrong, by the way. But of those who are victims of sexual assault, 90 or 91% are women,
[00:22:05] Speaker A: and they're not willing to help.
[00:22:06] Speaker B: Right. And then there's. Yeah, so I think that there's that.
But what I guess made me really interested in it is, you know, calling someone a monster, I guess, is like kind of under. If that. You know, it's understandable with certain behavior that you see them doing. It makes sense. Right. But looking at These numbers and these statistics, there's clearly a problem and we're not gonna get anywhere if we just say, I don't care. We have to figure out why it's happening so that it stops happening.
And that's, you know, in this. What. Initially I'll talk about kind of what got me into it, but from a mental health perspective, the suicidal rates being, you know, 80% men. And through my experience and statistics, I'm not seeing a lot of men come into my office.
That piqued my, like, how do we get them in? Why are they not coming? Clear they're struggling.
But yeah, I just think that people who have been on the victim side have every right and reason to be frustrated. I think that's valid and we need to.
This does need to matter so that it doesn't keep happening. And like from a suicidal and mental health standpoint, but also from these homicidal sexual assault, mass shooting standpoint too.
Yeah.
[00:23:38] Speaker A: Gosh. Society level resentment can just ruin everything.
[00:23:43] Speaker B: And social media, and we live in a time where people can group together and be really angry at a specific population. I sense, because I'm on social media, I go on TikTok from time to time, I sense a lot of anger, specifically from women towards men. And I understand it. I have my own wounds with men, but that's valid and that I don't care about their feelings.
I can understand being hurt, but we need to care about the issue and doing something about it.
[00:24:21] Speaker A: Totally. So what got you, Karen?
[00:24:23] Speaker B: Yeah, initially what drew me to it was, you know, I've. I had had my own pain with men and I wanted to understand it. Kind of like I want to understand, not to compare men to serial killers, but want to understand the serial killer.
[00:24:39] Speaker A: You know what I mean?
[00:24:40] Speaker B: But like, I just want to. I want to understand.
[00:24:42] Speaker A: Thanks for the caveat.
[00:24:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I want to understand it.
[00:24:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:45] Speaker B: So it started there and then.
[00:24:47] Speaker A: That's a grace, honestly.
[00:24:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:49] Speaker A: It's not everyone's initial drive.
[00:24:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
Full honesty. Like it was kind of a selfish initial drive. It was for my own healing. And throughout grad school, throughout my practicums, I worked at a jail with sex offenders for a year.
And they were all men.
And I just remember being like, I don't know how I'm gonna go into this experience and have a ton of empathy just knowing. Because I was also working in therapy at the time with victims of sexual abuse. So it was a really wild experience.
[00:25:28] Speaker A: I can't imagine.
[00:25:30] Speaker B: But gosh, I loved and understood. I was given the opportunity to really understand.
Not that their behavior ever became more okay to me, but not one of them that I worked with or assessed hadn't gone through their own trauma, specifically sexual trauma.
[00:25:50] Speaker A: All of them.
[00:25:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
So it just opened my eyes to like, there's something going on here. You know, we hear about women, but we don't hear about the men.
And then the men are doing it.
Why are we not hearing from the men?
[00:26:08] Speaker A: Why don't we fix the problem with the root?
[00:26:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
Wow.
[00:26:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:14] Speaker A: It's a grace my story. I've shared this a lot of times. My wife went through childhood sexual abuse and then had an experience in high school, experience in college, so multiple experiences.
And she's come around full blown with her healing and has told me, because I've had initial responses of, I just want to go kill somebody.
I'm not going to do that.
[00:26:36] Speaker B: But, you know, protect the protector in you.
[00:26:39] Speaker A: Yeah. The good thing in me as a man is that I want to protect. Right.
And she's like, no, no, I've forgiven them and I want them to be in heaven with me.
And I mean, that's Maria Goretti's was her prayer for Alessandro, who killed her. Look that story up if you don't know it. Like, did you forgive me? Yes. And I wanted to be with me in heaven.
[00:26:59] Speaker B: And how beautiful. It takes a lot of work, I mean, for her to get to that place.
And you've been. And oftentimes you don't get that apology or accountability or whatever. So, so strong of her to.
And vulnerable for her to do that work.
[00:27:16] Speaker A: But when you monsterify a people group, not only the people abuse, but then everybody who's misused the gift of masculinity and misused it to dominate unhealthily.
[00:27:28] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:27:29] Speaker A: Yeah. You don't want to help. You don't want to help. So thanks for seeing through that.
[00:27:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:33] Speaker A: There's one thing that struck me, reading your dissertation that I thought, okay, definitely gotta have her on. And you have to write a book about this. And when it becomes a book that's sold to the general public for having you back.
[00:27:41] Speaker B: Okay, perfect.
[00:27:43] Speaker A: There's a phrase you use that I've never heard before that would probably make you unpopular on all sides.
Feminine privilege, it makes you unpopular on one side because some people don't want to look at reality that anybody experiences any sort of privilege and then the other side, because obviously, how could you possibly say women have any of that?
[00:28:02] Speaker B: Right.
[00:28:03] Speaker A: So what do you mean by feminine privilege?
[00:28:05] Speaker B: Yeah, well, it was so interesting and
[00:28:06] Speaker A: how's it set up the mental health collapse for men?
[00:28:08] Speaker B: Yeah, it was so interesting because when I was, like, thinking about male privilege, I was looking at privilege in general, which is defined as these, I guess, unearned advantages by being a member of a specific group. Right.
And so. But in graduate school, when we were kind of doing activities around it and learning more about it, a big aspect of it is, you know, there are certain things as a woman that I have to think about every day that you as a man, don't have to worry about or think about.
[00:28:42] Speaker A: Totally.
[00:28:43] Speaker B: Right.
[00:28:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:43] Speaker B: So when I was looking at it through that lens, aside from the actual historical advantages men have had, I have
[00:28:53] Speaker A: no idea what you're talking about. I'm kidding.
[00:28:54] Speaker B: Right.
[00:28:55] Speaker A: To defend this too, can I add a line? I don't want to cut you off, but there's gonna be people watching who are, you know, triggered by the word privilege. And then, you know, we're all triggering each other in every science society right now. All right.
[00:29:08] Speaker B: So I think a better word is advantage, like an advantage that women have. And I think.
[00:29:14] Speaker A: But to add to that, I mean, it is a reality.
I could say this as a conservative Catholic man, Unquestionably, there's ways. And I wouldn't say privilege like a advantage that I shouldn't have. Everyone should have some of the advantages I'm enjoying.
[00:29:29] Speaker B: I agree.
[00:29:30] Speaker A: Right. That should just be a given.
That should just be here.
Now, I think some people in the camp that I just described myself as react against that word because of kind of a woke movement. I hate using all these stupid labels, but I don't know how else to say it's. That would see privilege under every stone, even places where it's not. And it gets this critical suspicious theory, and everything is viewed in a way that's suspect, and then everybody's divided. But the alternate. The reaction to that to be triggered and reactionary to that would be to say that that never happens, but that's equally suspect. And seeing I'm looking for wokeism under every rock. And so these people think they're so different from each other, and they have the same suspicion, the same spirit they're bringing to conversation, and then nothing happens and everything breaks down. My apologies for the bracket, but I just wanted to validate what you're saying, so go run with that.
[00:30:26] Speaker B: Yeah, Well, I think to help with this not being a triggering word for people, because I really thought a lot about using that term for the reasons you're talking about is really just this idea that, yes, by definition and historically with the patriarchy, there are these terms and definitions that are there.
There's a. I think what people don't talk about as much is that specific aspect of, like, the unearned, like, kind of part of it, which doesn't allow for this internal. It forces men to rely on external indicators of success, self esteem, all of that. Right.
[00:31:12] Speaker A: Find that a little more for me,
[00:31:13] Speaker B: we're talking about a system here which has to do with how we're socialized. Right. So people get really fixated on this. Privilege, not privilege. Because I think people.
I think the feminist movement happened and women are having more opportunities. And that's really wonderful, and it's amazing. But now the lens I'm looking through is, okay, so why was the patriarchy and the system, maybe, you know, while it privileged them and it gave them male privilege, in what ways did it really harm them?
And the way that I see that is, you know, when we're keeping things so separate, women are the nurturers, the caretakers. They're not working. They're really in their emotions. They're allowed to feel their emotions.
That's kind of their job, if you will. Right. And the men are supposed to like, I need to protect, I need to provide. I need to do all these things.
And when you're thinking fight or flight, and you need to protect and stand up, even your example with your wife, you want to fight, but it doesn't leave space for emotion.
So I think it's so important to acknowledge what got us here from a structural, systemic standpoint, but not get too caught in the weeds of, like, you know, the term privilege. What I meant by it is there are actually advantage. Like, I was just like, there's advantages that as a woman, I've had, even though maybe systemically and historically, women haven't had certain opportunities that they're having now.
Women have always, you know, been comforted when they cry, encouraged to access the emotional side of themselves.
And through my research, I just learned that boys and men are socialized in a way that really represses that. It's like, no, no, no. Emotions that are anything but, you know, happy and good.
[00:33:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:18] Speaker B: And anger. Anger is much more accepted than sadness encouraged, almost. Right. Yeah.
[00:33:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
And again, it's hard to define these things about using broad, sweeping terms.
But that's.
I mean, the quote, patriarchy, privilege, all those things setting me up in a way that society expects me to just act and great way to pull out the example of what I just said.
I want to go and do Something I don't sit for a minute and say, oh, I'm so sorry to hear that I want to cry, or I feel so angry, or it doesn't translate to an I feel expression. It translates to I'm going to go destroy something.
[00:34:04] Speaker B: Exactly right.
[00:34:05] Speaker A: And that's partly social conditioning, probably partly just, frankly, testosterone, my biological neurological makeup. Right.
But the feminine privilege is that there's the expectation, the allowance. Yeah. That the encouragement actually spared what we were, the world we were expected to achieve in.
You're able to actually talk about how you feel.
[00:34:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And it was something I just never really thought about. Right. Which comes back to that whole privilege that.
That aspect of privilege that I just never really thought about the male experience of, you know, when they're crying, they're being told, be a man, suck it up, be tough, rub dirt in it.
When anyone who's feeling those emotions needs nurturance, validation, et cetera. So they're being taught at such a young age to suppress that.
And anger is a secondary emotion.
Underlying anger is always something like sadness, hurt, vulnerability, whatever it is. But that part boys at a very young age are socialized to completely disconnect from, which only leaves them anger. Right.
[00:35:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:35:29] Speaker B: And it doesn't take away the emotion that's there.
It's just this is my only way of knowing how to express it. And then you see these stats. Right.
[00:35:37] Speaker A: And you see everybody dying and some
[00:35:39] Speaker B: of the power things. So, like, when the feminist movement happened, it gave women.
So, like the. Let's just. For argument's sake, the woman used to be expected to be at home, the caretaker, the nurturer, et cetera, et cetera. The man was expected to work, provide, et cetera, et cetera. And then it just kind of worked out well when the shift happened where women were given more privilege, like rights, you know, it kind of left men feeling like, well, wait, now you can work and provide and do all this. Like, what's my purpose now?
Right.
[00:36:20] Speaker A: I have literally nothing. Yeah.
[00:36:22] Speaker B: It feels like nothing.
[00:36:23] Speaker A: Nothing special.
[00:36:23] Speaker B: Yeah. And so the struggle, I think, is.
Is because for so long, the external indicators, success, competition, whatever, of that I'm good enough and that I matter. And there's a reason for me being here. Because I'm providing for my wife and she can't provide.
That gets lost.
So there's like an identity crisis, I
[00:36:44] Speaker A: think, happening for the past 60 years, right?
[00:36:47] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. And then I think on the other end, women are.
And this is where some women are angry. I think this is just where we're like, kind of missing each other, Men and women is. It's so beautiful and great that women can. I got my doctorate. I started my own business. Like, I can do that. That's awesome. But I also can be a mom and get married and do that. I get to do both. I get to embrace these more traditionally masculine things and also the feminine. Traditionally feminine things.
Men are left in a place, and it's like we fixed one part of it, but men weren't the problem.
You know, the system was, you know, so we need now to help men access that emotional side so that we are.
So that they are whole and can embrace and accept and express both their. Yeah. The whole human. The masculine and feminine sides. Instead of being terrified of, like, not measuring up as a man.
Right.
[00:37:52] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I've always been. I mean, really, 150 years ago, I was allowed to get a job. I am now. Today as well, Women are now able to get a job without it being this big social stigma. Right.
But I'm not still allowed to say how I feel or to say I need help.
So, yeah, the feminine privilege is a privilege in being human.
[00:38:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:13] Speaker A: Which is frankly, a way bigger privilege.
[00:38:15] Speaker B: Totally.
[00:38:16] Speaker A: Than being able to go do whatever job I feel like.
[00:38:18] Speaker B: Well, and this is what I'll say. You actually are allowed and always have been allowed. But the way from birth, by how you were socialized, you were discouraged, shamed.
You know what I'm saying?
To prove masculinity, you can't be those things.
And it's not like someone's saying you can't sometimes. Actually, that is the case. Don't cry, don't open up. Just be tough. But in others, it's also like, that's where that socialization comes in. It's like it just kind of happens, you know?
So where the struggle is now is that, you know women, I see it in couples all the time.
Women are really wanting men to be there to provide for them, but it's not in the way that men have been conditioned to provide, which is financially. They want to be provided for emotionally. And men are like, whoa.
And I can't speak for you men, but just in what I've researched and the work that I've done and all this is like, okay, I had the initial identity crisis of, like, what's my thing now? Because you can now do my thing.
You don't need me.
So what is my purpose?
But then also feeling like a failure, I guess, if you will, at being able to be there in the emotional way that Women need you.
[00:39:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:44] Speaker B: So I work with.
[00:39:45] Speaker A: Tons of mega shifts happen.
[00:39:46] Speaker B: It is. I work with tons of, like, you know, mostly middle school, high school, college, you know, boys. And that's the focus of my dissertation too.
And I just hear what.
What the tendencies are and what they do, and I just. In my head, I'm always like, you know, if we keep going down this path of how to operate as boys together and as men, you're gonna struggle. It goes completely against then what you want and need for connection with yourself, with anyone in your life, like, true connection.
And if you want to get married, like, and have a relationship with a woman in that way as well.
So there. It's.
I think the most painful thing and why I want to help is. I see.
I think the most painful thing is the disconnect of self, because that leads to shame.
[00:40:37] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't know if you have an answer for this because this would require insane amounts of ongoing research that I'm sure you'll. Maybe five years from now, we could talk about this more, but. So the sexual revolution happened.
The feminist movement happened. There were some aspects of it that emerged that were good and healthy, some aspects that emerged that were totally toxic and, frankly, evil. So here we are in this new world. But I would have thought that there'd be some rocking of the boat and it would have stabilized by the 1980s, 1990s, early 2000s. Why do you think it's getting even worse in the past 10 years? Why are the suicide rates going up? It's not like things are changing even more.
Or maybe they are. I don't know. What's making it get worse?
[00:41:16] Speaker B: Well, I think to, like.
My initial thought is when a system is operated a certain way and you address one end of it. So with the feminist movement, we're focusing on the women.
Like, there's a pendulum swing really far in the other direction. Right. And that is jarring for everyone involved. For women, it feels really good.
For men, it can be like, this is all I've known, and I don't know what to do with this, but we need to move it back.
And the way to move it more in the middle is we have, like, again, we have to address why, you know, the patriarchy was actually not beneficial for men. Because if.
Because, I mean, that's what the research kind of is showing. Right. Is that, like, by nature of being the provider in that financial whatever way, and it being just this kind of inherent thing, you don't work towards it. I thought about this analogy. I almost Think about it, like. And it's not the same thing, but, like, nepotism. Do you know what I'm saying?
[00:42:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:31] Speaker B: So if there's a famous actor and they've got a kid and they get this big role by nature of their connection to their dad, there's a different level of, like, internal, like, esteem and pride. I worked really hard for this. Not that they're not talented or not that they don't deserve it than someone who came from no money. They were homeless, they busted their butt. They got to this place. They did. That person who gets that gig is going to.
Is going to feel such an internal sense of, like, accomplishment. Does that make sense?
[00:43:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:43:14] Speaker B: It doesn't mean either one's more or less qualified.
So I think when it comes to this, the focus is like, okay, how this system worked was that men were kind of needed for one thing, but actually we need men for another thing now.
And that's the. And that's like what my dissertation, like, goal is. Right. Is.
And men need that.
[00:43:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:43:43] Speaker B: Do you know what I'm saying?
[00:43:44] Speaker A: No, totally.
Or we need them for both things now.
[00:43:47] Speaker B: Exactly.
Just like, I can be both. I can have worked on my education for 10 years and started a business. And I'm engaged and I'm gonna get married enough. I can do both.
[00:43:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:43:58] Speaker B: Right.
Men, right at this moment in time haven't been given the attention because of their privilege, because people don't recognize they're actually suffering.
They thought they fixed the problem because women just needed to be up here now, but that wasn't addressing it all. Like, there's this other layer to address now, which is this. Right?
[00:44:20] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:44:20] Speaker B: And that's what got me passionate about this.
[00:44:23] Speaker A: Gosh, what a mess we are.
[00:44:24] Speaker B: Well, it's actually.
[00:44:26] Speaker A: There's a lot of work to do. It's good for your business. Yeah.
[00:44:28] Speaker B: Well, and that was what, you know, earlier when you asked me, like, this whole thing has been such a step by step. Like, the more research I was doing, the more I was learning about it. I was like, I need to create a manual for this. Because I started working with young boys, giving them the skills, teaching them the tools that they, you know, either biologically don't inherently kind of have in the same way as women. Right. Like, emotionally, but then also teaching them the skills of emotion regulation.
You know, I would tell them the messages of, you know, in order to be like a man. Like, it's not you being all macho and tough and not crying.
Like, the strongest men are the ones that cry. Yeah, that's a really vulnerable thing to do.
[00:45:15] Speaker A: Amen. And it's tragic to me how men are thrown by the shifts that have happened in the workplace, for instance, because this is just shallow external thing.
This is also tragic. The secular feminist movement would say that the way to create equality is to say there's no difference. No, there's difference and there's complementarity.
[00:45:37] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:45:37] Speaker A: That in the equality. So I don't have to be threatened at all.
I could be calm in who I am and know that what I am as a man is uniquely beautiful and needed. And what you are as a woman is uniquely beautiful and needed. And gosh, I don't care if that impacts someone's working with me down the hall.
[00:45:55] Speaker B: That's healthy masculinity right there though.
[00:45:56] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess it's coming from a non threatened place.
[00:45:59] Speaker B: Yes, but a lot of men are threatened.
[00:46:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:46:02] Speaker B: And it makes sense that they would be.
[00:46:04] Speaker A: And a lot of women are threatened by them and just that's why it's a mess from both sides.
[00:46:08] Speaker B: Yeah, but that's where I want to help men to be like, to help get to the place you're at, where this isn't a threat, actually.
[00:46:13] Speaker A: Yes. And it's great. Leads right to the next question because it does start with celebrating what's inside of a man. And to quote your dissertation here, I love the scripture about Jesus, the good shepherd. And this moves me to think about it. He used the word kalos for good, which a lot of people translate as good. And that's a valid translation. But in the Greek, kalos also means beautiful. So when he talks about the good shepherd, he's saying the I'm the beautiful shepherd, the thing that can protect the sheep, that uniquely does that, that puts the sheep on the shoulders that carries a stick around and will hit a coyote is beautiful.
That's awesome. But you wrote this in your dissertation. We need to bring awareness to those qualities of the traditional masculine code that make men proud to be men.
A man's willingness to set aside his own needs for the sake of his family.
His ability to withstand hardship and pain to protect others. His tendency to take care of people and solve their problems as if they were his own. His way of expressing love by doing things for others. His loyalty, dedication, commitment. His stick to itiveness and will to hang in there until the situation is corrected. His ability to solve problems, think logically, rely on himself, take risks, stay calm in the face of danger and assert himself. By the way, you have a healthy femininity that you're able to say this without feeling like you're taking away from yourself. Exactly. It's not like saying, well, women have no stick to itiveness. And they're not. No.
[00:47:35] Speaker B: 100%, no.
[00:47:36] Speaker A: No. But there's a particular way men embody those things that's masculine and beautiful. It's kalos.
But you're a field, and you're kind of contrary to how a lot of people were formed. And you didn't go to all Catholic universities. Right.
So you were going against the system a little bit here because a lot of your whole systemic brokenness. Right. The field of psychology is systemically broken in that there's an obsession with crushing the toxic masculinity out of society. Right. The ways we've taken this and spun it in the wrong ways. But the only way to.
Gosh, I remember the Just say no campaign as a kid to drugs. It was noble. I need to say yes to something.
[00:48:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Like, you're telling me what not to do, but you're not telling me what
[00:48:24] Speaker A: I what to do.
So how do you get men to embrace those parts of their masculinity, to name these things, to celebrate them, to rest in them, to say, I'm kalos, man.
[00:48:35] Speaker B: I'm beautiful.
[00:48:36] Speaker A: I love being a man.
How do you get guys to get in touch with that?
[00:48:40] Speaker B: It's a lot of steps, but it's not that hard. You know what I'm saying?
[00:48:44] Speaker A: I like that. Yes. Gives me some hope. Yeah.
[00:48:47] Speaker B: I think first and foremost, not many men, boys, are actually aware of these, like, written out, like, definitions of what it means to what's so beautiful about being a man. Right. And what there is to be celebrated.
So it's important to talk to especially young boys as they're being formed around actually what healthy masculinity, as I've always hated the term toxic masculinity because it insinuates that, you know, men and masculinity in itself is toxic. That's not really true. There's something so beautiful about masculinity, and I know it to be not true. Because if masculinity was toxic, then why would us as women want to celebrate masculinity in addition to our femininity in the feminist movement? Right. So there is a lot of beauty in that.
So one, I think it's telling them what healthy masculinity is and what it is not. Right.
I would call it more like a maladaptive approach to masculinity, which, in what I've learned Is masculinity itself is not the problem. It's a boy. And a man's pressure to prove their masculinity their whole lives.
And it's an ongoing exhausting process to
[00:50:25] Speaker A: fit stereotypes that we would associate with a, quote, patriarchy, and need to break through some of that.
[00:50:33] Speaker B: Well, when you think about the patriarchy or any type of anything, when there's this kind of power differential, then the masculine traits actually do become seen as the ones you want, and the feminine ones are seen as the ones you don't want. Right. Because it denotes power.
We're here now, which is good.
So let's continue to see masculinity as a beautiful thing that everyone can embrace that side of themselves and explore within themselves without it making them less of a woman or a man.
But also challenging.
Like, a lot of the challenging, the messages is like, crying's weak.
Well, crying is a traditionally more feminine thing. Right. Or being emotional or expressing emotions. So helping them understand that actually that doesn't make you less of a man. And that quality is actually not less than. It's what's going to make you feel most fulfilled, really. Wow. Right. And that's where that privilege of the women comes in, is like, yeah, we didn't have power, and that was, you know, how it was. But we've always been able to connect with one another on a deep level and, you know, express our emotions. And I see it a lot with teenage boys and even fathers and sons, and the way that they connect is through, like, roughhousing and teasing. And a lot of middle school boys will just kind of, like, throw kind of, like, not mean comments, but, like, they'll make fun of each other, and then they'll make fun of each other, and they're like.
And inevitably, someone goes too far and it hurts their feelings, and now they're actually mad.
It's like a competition, right?
[00:52:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:52:15] Speaker B: And when I talk with these boys, like, they do want to connect. They just don't know how.
That's how we connect.
We kind of joke around or wrestling. You know, when my dad throws me on the couch and we wrestle, I feel loved. But really, when I talk to these boys, it's like, I just want my dad to, like, you know, sit with me when I'm sad. You know what I'm saying?
[00:52:38] Speaker A: Oh, totally.
[00:52:39] Speaker B: So I think how to help these young boys and men is to first and foremost challenge unhelpful messages of masculinity that are more geared towards being, proving it.
Pointing out the beautiful aspects of masculinity and then teaching the skills to like live those out.
Right?
[00:53:07] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:53:08] Speaker B: So that it's more connected and emotional versus I've been providing and kind of shoving that thing down. So I'm providing for you, but can't connect in that way.
[00:53:19] Speaker A: Proving it is a cutting. It cuts to the heart.
If a lot of men are angry, it's because a lot of men feel unsafe.
Nothing will make you feel less safe than feeling like you have to validate and prove your existence by succeeding in this imagined system you have in your mind. Right.
[00:53:37] Speaker B: 100%.
[00:53:37] Speaker A: And God forbid I don't become the guy who's the boss of the company.
I didn't prove my very self worth.
And then they don't. They don't. My family's told me before, like I'm so dang busy by nature.
Right. And they just sat me down like, we don't need you to do anything. We need you to be with us.
[00:53:57] Speaker B: That's such a good distinction.
[00:53:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:53:59] Speaker B: Doing versus being.
[00:54:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
It's healing to hear that from people who love me. You know, just sit down, man. But a lot of men, you yourself are a blessing.
[00:54:07] Speaker B: A lot of men haven't been told that.
[00:54:08] Speaker A: No. No.
[00:54:09] Speaker B: And that's part of the problem.
[00:54:11] Speaker A: They want to die. Really.
That's the pressure they're carrying.
[00:54:15] Speaker B: Right. So when they don't. So when they don't. The reason for those numbers is because. And when it. Whether it comes to substance use, anger, outbursts that lead to incarceration, sexual assaults, you know, suicidality, any of these things, it's. Men have been. Because they've been trained to shut off internally anything vulnerable.
They have to find a different way to express it.
So they externalize just by nature.
So we have to teach them how to access that internal.
Give them the coping skills. Actually name that there's sadness and anxiety and fear and insecurity going on and that's okay. That doesn't make you less of a man. Actually makes you more of a man for naming that.
[00:55:00] Speaker A: Amen. Amen.
[00:55:00] Speaker B: Right.
[00:55:03] Speaker A: I mean, I love thinking of Jesus and how he interacted with the apostles.
I mean, there was nothing more intimate and in many ways motherly.
He wasn't afraid to go there. I think of him washing their feet. That's a very intimate, vulnerable thing.
I think of John putting his head on Jesus chest at the last supper.
I think of the ways he talked with them one on one.
It's profound. And it was not gay.
Honestly. I just want to say that because it wasn't sexual I think one of the things that makes men more isolated from each other is that we become so hypersexual that any intimacy is immediately associated with sexual in nature, especially with another man. Yeah. And then gay. And then, well, I'm not gay and not safe.
And I'm sure there's 15 other obstacles and then the association of that with weakness. Right.
And so there's these qualities that are masculine inherently and qualities that are feminine inherently, but if there's a wall instead of something more porous between the two. Right. That's when everything gets toxic and weird.
[00:56:15] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:56:16] Speaker A: Whereas Jesus wasn't going to say, I'm not going to have you put your head on my chest. That's feminine. Well, it is feminine. It's inherently motherly to do that. Right. But he said, that's okay, that's part of me. Doesn't make me less of a man to say, that's part of me. You put your head here, John. I mean, think about how uncomfortable that is if in this modern context you see a man put his head on another man's chest. Like, how do I process this in a poor and saturated culture?
[00:56:38] Speaker B: Yes. Oh, great addition there.
[00:56:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:56:41] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:56:41] Speaker A: Like they literally wouldn't know what to do with that information. Say that's straight and manly. And again, I'm not trying to put down guys who are watching who are struggling with same sex attraction by saying that. But these are the obstacles that we come against.
How do you name and help guys overcome those knee jerk reaction obstacles they don't even know are there? Do you just name them and talk about them like we're doing right now? What do you do?
[00:57:05] Speaker B: I mean, partly, yes. I think that the examples of Jesus and the good shepherd and washing the feet, like all of those examples are perfect examples of a balanced masculine and feminine. Right. It's, it's, you know, I'm providing for you, I'm taking care of you, I'm here for you, I'm protecting you.
But it's coming from a place of other not self. Like, so it's a selfless love too. It's nurturing and protecting at the same time.
The problem is this need to prove, and it's kind of at the point that I'm seeing lately, and this is just in therapy and talking with boys and girls, is that there's kind of this need to prove masculinity is within men themselves because we don't need you to prove it.
Do you know what I'm saying?
[00:58:06] Speaker A: You're like, please don't Please don't prove it.
[00:58:09] Speaker B: I'm seeing it a lot with middle schoolers with the sexual aspect where girls are just. Every girl I'm meeting with is talking about this, like pressure and push for sexual stuff and they don't want to
[00:58:20] Speaker A: do it in middle school.
[00:58:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:58:22] Speaker A: And this is why my kids don't date in middle school. Sorry.
[00:58:25] Speaker B: And then, you know, they'll say. And yeah, then some level of.
I, they use the fact that, well, so and so did this to her boyfriend. And it's. I remember saying to the girl, just very recently, I was like, he's not. He needs to think about whether he even actually wants to do this. He's in competition with this other guy. Because the more girls you can get, is that external indicator of success.
Do you know what I'm saying?
[00:58:54] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:58:55] Speaker B: It's crazy and it's not good.
[00:58:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:58:57] Speaker B: So to get more Christ like we need to.
It starts with teaching on an individual level, those things. But we need to be teaching this on a broader scale. Which is why I'm happy to be here because. And which is why my dissertation group that I created is for a group that, you know, should be run all over.
Because I can teach the skills, I can teach the messages to one boy and he goes to school and he implements them and he gets bullied for it. Do you know what I'm saying?
[00:59:32] Speaker A: Oh, totally.
[00:59:32] Speaker B: It's like, it's boy to boy, man to man is the issue. And I think that's where I can't speak for men, but it's just what I'm seeing. Like, I think that's where they're getting stuck, but they're stuck because they don't have the tools. And therapy, inherently, the nature of therapy goes completely against what men have been socialized to do.
So you're asking me as a boy or a man, after my whole life you've told me to shove my stuff down. Now you want me to go to therapy and open up.
I don't even know how to do that.
So a lot of men that I've experienced come in first through a couple, and then they're more comfortable to do individual. And it's life changing.
So I think getting boys and men in therapy sooner to talk about this type of stuff. Therapists should be, you know, the approach to working with men needs to look different. It can't be the same as your approach to working with women. So clinicians need to know that.
Parents need to know the impact of their behavior and their messages that they learned from their Dads and moms about men and masculinity because it, you know, and how they're behaving and the impact on their kid and what messages they're just learning by observation. Yeah, right.
[01:00:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:00:45] Speaker B: Hugging your kid, you know, as a dad, crying in front of your child, sharing with your child that, like, I actually feel sad and insecure too, you know? Really? And that's not weak really, dad. Cause they look up.
[01:00:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:00:59] Speaker B: Oh, that's amazing. I look up to my dad and he cries. And when I cry, he says, it makes sense that you're crying right now. Makes sense why you're sad. Give me a hug. Can I hug you? Can I be here for you? What do you need?
Right?
This is what you could say, you know, when a kid. When a boy. Since we're speaking about men. But this works for all kids. When a boy is acting out instead of punishing.
Sit with and seek to understand underneath the anger or the outburst or the behavior, what pain is there? What's going on. Just get curious, you know, be.
Which gets back to your thing with your family. Just be like, just be with your young boys too. You know what I mean?
And get curious about them.
Don't assume that anger or bad behavior outbursts is because there's something wrong with them or they're bad.
Assume always that there's something else going on and they just don't have the tools and they don't know how to get there.
[01:02:00] Speaker A: It's awesome.
[01:02:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:02:02] Speaker A: Well, thanks for helping us take down the matriarchy and tear down feminine privilege.
[01:02:07] Speaker B: Let's embrace both. Right?
[01:02:10] Speaker A: That's the difference. Right. It doesn't have to be an anti.
And this is where the feminist movement went largely wrong. No one ever had to take down patriarchy. You know what I mean? Let's healthily raise up the matriarchy in the right way.
[01:02:22] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:02:23] Speaker A: And keep the patriarchy. Let's let these things get married a
[01:02:26] Speaker B: both and is exactly where we need to be with most things in life, by the way.
[01:02:30] Speaker A: Yeah. And the pendulum swinging. It's please, God, may the pain wake people up to have it swing back to where it's always supposed to have been.
[01:02:40] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, if I could ask anyone listening to just think about one thing or like one message be like, so clearly communicated is what is most obvious, whether it's on social media or the people in your life, is when a man or a boy is acting out or engaging in any of these statistics, the feelings are valid. It is not good.
And if we can all just Take a step to think about and understand that there's pain under there. And how can we as a society and as a whole, help change future generations and current to move away from that? Because the numbers are only going to rise.
And the whole I don't care isn't gonna change, and your anger isn't gonna change. My anger didn't change.
You know, coming up with something and helping men has healed me as a woman from my male wounds. You know what I'm saying? So do that.
[01:03:39] Speaker A: You know, nothing's actually more empowering than to love your enemy.
[01:03:42] Speaker B: Absolutely.
It's exactly like your wife, like.
And that's why it was so beautiful to hear. Is that what I didn't expect God to do in my journey of all of this research and whatnot is go from being, like, really hurt and angry at men and wanting to understand it for me to understanding them so much that I had so much compassion and I was able to forgive.
And I want to help and I want it to change.
Because if it doesn't change, nothing gets better.
[01:04:17] Speaker A: No. You know, we have wounded people wounding people and killing themselves.
Thank you so much.
Just the raising of awareness goes so far because as a person who raises kids and now is deeply involved in the lives of my grandkids, you just can't presume that even if you're loving your kids, even if you're emotionally expressive, that your boys growing up in this cultural context are gonna grow up feeling comfortable and manly, saying things like, I'm in pain. I need help.
Help me. You know, I'm feeling X, Y, and Z.
If we're not really intentional about making sure they're okay doing that, we could presume they won't be okay doing that.
And that's the world we live in. But it's not unfixable. And I love seeing complex, massive problems with simple fixes. It reminds me of David and Goliath. It's like, what do I do? Well, here's five smooth stones.
Take it down.
[01:05:20] Speaker B: Absolutely.
And that is. You know, when I wrote my dissertation and I created this manual, I so curated it to.
And in order, like, what young boys need.
So link it, go through if you want to look through it. If you. You know, it's meant for clinicians, but, you know, just. I think you had mentioned, like, if a kid is saying to you, I'm in pain, majority of the time, they're actually not gonna be able to say that. You gotta see it.
[01:05:55] Speaker A: You gotta not presume that they're gonna tell you.
[01:05:57] Speaker B: And what's actually more meaningful and sends the message that their emotions matter is not only just not shutting it down, but it's being the one to notice a behavior and be like, something else going on. Buddy.
[01:06:10] Speaker A: Mm.
[01:06:11] Speaker B: I know that you just threw that thing at me, but are you feeling hurt?
There's anger. I see the anger. What's underneath that? Are you feeling upset? Are you feeling sad? Are you feeling scared?
Let's talk about it. Your feelings matter to me.
Things like that just.
Yeah. Taking the step for our young boys so that hopefully change occurs over time and the pendulum swings back.
In terms of the current stats, I would just encourage men to go to therapy. I know it's scary, but I promise you it will make you feel whole. It really will.
And you're capable.
[01:06:54] Speaker A: Don't rub some dirt in it.
[01:06:55] Speaker B: Yeah, don't rub dirt in it. Like, you're capable of all the things that feel very scary.
[01:07:00] Speaker A: And it's easy to rub dirt in it.
[01:07:02] Speaker B: It's super easy.
[01:07:03] Speaker A: Right. I mean, you might end up dead, you might end up an alcoholic, but in the near term, it takes far more courage. If you got a. I love the image of the Balrog in the deep places in Lord of the Rings. To go down into the mines and look at it, Boy, that's courage.
[01:07:17] Speaker B: And do it for you.
[01:07:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:07:19] Speaker B: Because I think a lot of men right now are feeling like, well, everyone wants us to go to therapy.
Don't do it for you. Because you will feel whole and you will feel so much more confident and. And happy when you go there.
[01:07:34] Speaker A: Or I mean, I'd honestly say, too, if you're not even at the place where you think you're worthy of the care, you can do it for people you love.
[01:07:41] Speaker B: Exactly right.
[01:07:43] Speaker A: You wanna rescue.
[01:07:43] Speaker B: Hopefully that is also part of it. But for the stubborn ones.
[01:07:49] Speaker A: Yeah, there you go.
[01:07:50] Speaker B: Just know, yeah, I'm not gonna go.
[01:07:51] Speaker A: Cause she wants me to go. But I think of the urge to slay a dragon and rescue a damsel in distress. And then I get married and realized, oh, the dragon's inside of me.
That's the thing I gotta kill.
[01:08:03] Speaker B: It's a tough one.
[01:08:05] Speaker A: I'd much rather be someone else or somewhere else.
Praise God. Thanks for your work. Thank you. Thanks for your courage in doing this and taking heed from all sides and being countercultural like Jesus truly inspires people to be.
And thanks for loving men.
[01:08:21] Speaker B: I appreciate you having me on and allowing me to share this on your platform because it's so important.
[01:08:28] Speaker A: Needs to be shared again as soon as the book comes out, let me know you're coming back. I love you guys. Thank you so much for watching. The Lord loves you so much, too, just as you are. Even though he's calling you to be more and more, he loves you just as you are. Take a deep breath. Relax. He loves you.
Honor to be with you guys. See you next time.
