The Science of Motivation and Doing What You Should | Dr. Tom Zimmer

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Friends from one extreme where you're maybe struggling with a young adult who won't leave home and is smoking weed in the basement while playing video games all day, to the everyday life stuff where you just know you're supposed to make some positive changes in your life and you can't seem to get the grit to move. Motivation is at the heart of it all. How do you tap into motivation? How do you actually make the changes that you know that God is calling you to make? And how do you motivate your kids to do the same? And the people that you love, the people in your life? We're going to dive in with an expert in the science of motivation, Tom Zimmer. Today's really going to help you wherever you're at in life, whatever you're dealing with on the Chris Stefanik Show. Welcome to the Chris Stefanik Show. We are here to motivate you to live your everyday life with joy and to show you how to do it. Missionaries of Joy, I want to thank you so much. You're what makes this work happen. It's impossible without you. If you want to make a difference in this world and help us and fuel this work, click below this video. Become a missionary of joy today. Right now. I'm saying right now because if you don't do it now, it's never going to happen. I'm serious. Pause the video. Help us out. If you're not getting our daily anchor, why? I just want to inspire you every day of your life. For free sign up link is below this video and this episode is sponsored in part by our friends at ewtn. You can catch this and so much more goodness on ewtn. Plus streaming link is below in the show notes. Let's jump in. Dr. Tom Zimmer. [00:01:37] Speaker B: Good morning. [00:01:38] Speaker A: I've been wanting to interview you for a long time. [00:01:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm glad to be here. It's great to be here. [00:01:44] Speaker A: Yeah. PhD specializing in outdoor education. So basically PhD in fun. [00:01:49] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. My brother gave me a hard time. He said I had a PhD in setting up tents and that's definitely not the case. I spent four years learning how to do research, so it was not what I thought I signed up for. [00:02:01] Speaker A: Leave it to a brother to deflate your ego. [00:02:03] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:02:03] Speaker A: At all times. [00:02:04] Speaker B: Well, he's a medical doctor. So when I, when I, when my mom started calling me doctor, like, we have two doctors in the family. And my brother's like, he's not a real doctor. So I'm like, what are you talking about? [00:02:15] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like, what I could do appendicitis. Come on. Anybody in pain in their stomach, come on over. I got this. And a professor at Wyoming Catholic College. [00:02:24] Speaker B: Yes. [00:02:25] Speaker A: Who? Kyle was telling me. He's like, you know, I used to be flattered when people said Wyoming Catholics, the best kept secret. And he's like, it's starting to really bother me. [00:02:34] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. [00:02:35] Speaker A: You gotta let people notice. It really is so cool. [00:02:39] Speaker B: It is an amazing school. [00:02:40] Speaker A: Fusing education with the outdoor immersion and the whole human formation. It kind of blows my mind. [00:02:45] Speaker B: Absolutely. It's is. It is an amazing school. And. And the more time I spend there, the more I realize, like, it's cutting edge and it's. It really is forming the whole person. [00:02:58] Speaker A: So cool. [00:02:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:59] Speaker A: I want to talk about motivation, because your dissertation was in motivation. Yeah, I really did. I really hope you turn that into a book that like, anybody could consume because. [00:03:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I should think about that. Yeah. [00:03:09] Speaker A: Like, as I'm reading it, I'm thinking about this topic. It's so essential. It underlies so many things. There's people going through Lent who like, gosh, I just. I'm not strong enough to give up X, Y or Z. It's like, actually you probably are strong enough. It's your motivation that's lacking or needs to be tweaked. [00:03:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:28] Speaker A: Or someone who just can't get on top of exercise or a prayer life or. You know, frankly, I know things I'm supposed to do as a dad better. I want to take each kid out once a week. Okay. But if I'm not doing those things over an extended period of time, I don't have time. No, no, no. You need to dig into and remember your motivation and what is it and strengthen it. So. Okay, let's start here. What is motivation? [00:03:55] Speaker B: Yeah, motivation. I mean, what makes you wake up in the morning to do the thing that you do? What? You know, and as a parent, a father of four kids, and now I have a teenager for the first time. My oldest is 14. Like, not only like, knowing motivation, what. What makes me tick, what makes. What makes my wife tick, she's so different from me. But then how can I get my kid to be motivated to go to church? Or how can I get my kid to motivated to. To read more or to like math, you know, all those things. So I think there's. Motivation is such a basic concept that the more you understand and I think it's. It's the challenge is, is our world teaches us motivation in certain ways. And that's not great. I mean, much of motivation is behaviorism. Like, the reason I don't speed is because I'm going to get a ticket. I don't want my insurance to go up. I don't want to pay more money. I. The reason that. I mean grades. If you think about grades, like, are you getting an A because you really love science in school, or you want to get a scholarship, or you want to impress your dad by having an A, like, but, but the problem is behaviorism and motivation when it comes to rewards and punishments. If the only reason you're doing that, if you remove the rewards and punishments, then you're doing it for, for the wrong reason. Or, or you're not like, intrinsically motivated. I want my kids. Like, I think all of our kids are. They go to church because we forced them to go to church. Yeah, right. And we. Maybe they're quiet because we tell them, like, you're going to get the donut afterwards if you stop talking in church. But ultimately we need to remove the donut and we need the kid to. I want my kid, when he goes to college and he's making his own choices of whether he's going to church or not, I want him to love Jesus and I want him to be motivated intrinsically to go to church instead of just, I'm going to church because mom and dad are forcing me to go. [00:05:41] Speaker A: Well, how are you defining behaviorism, just modifying behaviors based on a punishment? [00:05:46] Speaker B: Well, behaviorism is a really popular theory. I think everybody knows Pavlov's dog. You know, you, you ring the bell and show the hot dog to the. The dog, and the dog starts to salivate. And over time, you can now remove the hot dog, ring the bell, and the dog is like, salvating because he's been trained. And so behaviorism is all about. I mean, it's in every aspect of our life as adults even. So, again, like the law enforcement education, we get grades. You know, like, we. I worked for a school where they didn't do grades. And so, like, some people were motivated by not having grades and just actually hearing from the teacher, like, how well you did. But some kids, they need the grade. They need the grade to, like, force them to, like, work hard so they can get a better grade, get a better gpa. But as little children, you know, we're like giving gold stars and like, good job. Like mom and dad's praise, like, that's, that's a reward that you get, or punishment don't do that or you're grounded. So behaviorism you know, is a, is constantly a part of our life. A great example of how scary. And there's two things about that we have to know about. Behaviorism. Behaviorism is amazing in the fact that we can take a kid or an adult and I don't want to do this thing, but if I can get a reward or a punishment based off of it, it's going to affect my behavior. So let's look at children. So my daughter, like my daughter, I taught her how to roll a kayak. I'm a big outdoorsman and I want my daughter to roll a kayak. I taught my son how to kayak when he was 10, but my son now wants to have a partner to go kayaking with. So I have an 8 year old daughter. I'm going to teach her how. Well, an 8 year old doesn't want to be flipped upside down in a kayak where like you're confined inside a boat. [00:07:27] Speaker A: A 50 year old man also totally. [00:07:29] Speaker B: Oh yeah, no, but it's kind of terrifying. So, you know, I, so, and I'll probably bring up this example as we talk more about some of the other theories of motivation. But. So here she is, 8 years old. This is last Thursday. It's 9:30pm the pool closes at 10 o'. Clock. It's 9:50. She's been trying rolls. She's getting cold. The water's cold. She's like, I don't want to keep doing the station. Like that's fine. Like I want to keep her happy. Like go jump off the diving board. [00:07:54] Speaker A: You are not the average dad. I just love this. I'm sorry. [00:07:57] Speaker B: Yeah. So I'm like, go, go jump off the diving board. And I'm teaching college students how to roll too. So I'm like, and I'm working with like a NOLS instructor who's learning how to kayak. And, and I'm teaching him how to roll. And then I'm bouncing between my daughter and like these college students and a Knowles instructor, like, teach him how to roll. So she comes back, there's two minutes left. The lifeguard's like, hey, I got two minutes left. And my, my son like really wants to get his sister to roll. So he comes over and he's like, I'll buy you a Barbie doll if you get your roll tonight. Cause she's close, she's like 90% there. And she all of a sudden has this trigger in her brain. I've got to do this. I want a Barbie doll. And so she, so there's literally 50 seconds left. I have her flip upside down. And she gets almost there. And, and I'm like, you have one more try, Sophie. Like, and she starts to cry. Like, I really want to get the Barbie. And I said, then Sophie, you have to give all your might because the lifeguard. And there's this huge clock on the pool and it's like ticking down. I'm like, you have 10 seconds. We have to get out of this pool. And she goes, please daddy, can I try one more time? She goes upside down. She puts all her might on it. And she did a roll. My little 8 year old girl did. [00:09:02] Speaker A: Wow. That's it. [00:09:03] Speaker B: It was awesome. But why? Because of behaviorism. My kids, a three year old does not want to ski. I take my kids skiing by the age of three, they say no. [00:09:09] Speaker A: They're like, it's like Gumby trying to get them to stand up. [00:09:12] Speaker B: Oh yeah. [00:09:13] Speaker A: And the lower back core workout that dad has to do to get a three year old down the hill. [00:09:18] Speaker B: But like even just getting the gear on, it's uncomfortable. These gloves are on me. There's a ton of stuff that I do to like get them excited about like skiing like literally in October. But, but the, the behaviorism side is I always give them a gummy bear. Like one gummy bear every time they get on a chairlift. And instead of going in to get and I want to go inside, it's cold, I want to go get hot chocolate. It's like, no, I'm going to give you a gummy bear. And now they get on lift. And then when they're four or five years old now they actually like to ski. Intrinsically, they want to ski. It's fun. You remove the gummy bear and they want to continue to do it. My son does not like playing music. And I said, man, we got, I want you to either pick piano or guitar. Like pick, pick one of those instruments. And he's like, I guess I'll play guitar. And, and so like, can I give him a reward? If you, if you play 15 minutes of guitar every day, you get this thing and it's great. My son has been difficult. He's 14 years old. He's becoming a little defiant against his dad. There's a lot of art. [00:10:14] Speaker A: Imagine that. [00:10:15] Speaker B: Yeah, like a 14 year old. No, it's wild. [00:10:19] Speaker A: I don't even. This is a foreign concept. [00:10:21] Speaker B: Yeah, totally, totally. But like so we said it's hilarious. So we have this great trip. We're going to go and it's an adult trip meaning like he gets to go with his mom and dad. And we're going to, we're going to leave the little ones with, with my sister. She's going to take care of them. And I said, you and I did behaviorism. This is a 14 year old. I'm also doing it with my 8 year old. [00:10:38] Speaker A: See, most parents do this, but you're actually labeling. You actually know what you're doing. [00:10:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:41] Speaker A: You tell your kids what you're doing and drive them crazy by like, hey, kids, this is behaviorism. Well, this is translate. [00:10:47] Speaker B: Yes. Well, my daughter doesn't get it. So I'm like, if you get 10 stars, if you get 10 stars and it's on our fridge, it has each of my four kids names and there's 10 and you can get a little star. And if you get 10 stars, you get to go on this trip. And the reality is we're gonna go on the trip regardless. But like, I'm trying to get my kids to recognize, like, they need to get 10 stars. Well, my son's smart enough. He goes, dad, this whole thing is stupid. And what frustrated me is he said in front of my daughter. So I'm like, what is? [00:11:14] Speaker A: I'm onto your behaviorism, dad. [00:11:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, yeah. And I'm like, you can't do that in front of your sister. And he's like, this is stupid, dad, because I know I'm going to do the trip anyway. And I said, yeah, you're kind of right. Like, we're, I booked the plane tickets. We're going. Well, as much as he thinks, as much as he says, like, this is stupid and I'm not going to like, play your little game, dad. Well, guess what I got. [00:11:33] Speaker A: But I really do want the star. [00:11:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, totally. He actually asked for a star a couple times. And then I got an email yesterday morning from his teacher that said, hey, I just want to let you know, in the last two weeks, I have seen a change in Theo because he goes to a Montessori school where he rides his bike with his three, three sisters. And he drops them off. And normally he would just like drop them off and like they put their bikes away and he goes and does his thing. [00:11:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:55] Speaker B: She said in the last week, every time they pull in, he helps them put the bikes in the bike rack. He gives them a hug and he says. And I'm like, boom. Like as much as. [00:12:04] Speaker A: High five, Theo. You're watching. [00:12:05] Speaker B: Yeah, high five. Behaviorism. Right? [00:12:08] Speaker A: My kids, my kids, when they're watching, like, oh, no, is dad going to Bring me up. [00:12:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, totally. Totally. [00:12:12] Speaker A: Yeah. You're a great kid. We love you, man. It's so basic. It's good to hear it. Because as a parent, though, you want to get beyond just mere behaviorism, right? [00:12:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, for sure. [00:12:24] Speaker A: But as a parent, it's a necessary phase. And when we don't do that, when we're not intentional about that, I mean, I'm so undisciplined. Me and my wife are both enfp, adhd. She's infp, whatever. But, like, we're just not like, the structure, structured brain types, you know? And when you don't have the here's your star, here's your minus, what you do is yell. [00:12:45] Speaker B: Sure. [00:12:45] Speaker A: You know what I mean? You don't have an action item. And when you feel powerless without the action, it's like, ah, guys, would you stop? You know, 100%. And. Which is the worst way to parent ever. Because then they don't even. Then the yelling sounds like normal volume to them after. [00:12:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I yell too much right now to my kids, so I'm like, I need to change that. In fact, I'm getting him. He's been asking me for an electric motorcycle forever with his own money in the summer. And I'm just like, no. Like, it's a waste of time. I don't want you to do it. I want you to ride your bike. You're young. You're like, be fit. And I realized, like, he gave some compelling reasons. But the biggest thing for me is, like, I need something to, like, be able to say, you don't get your bike for the next day. Like, stop behaving that way. Do the dishes. Stop talking to your mom like that. Don't talk to me like that. You don't get the bike tomorrow. I don't really have that for him right now. Once he can drive, I'll have the car. You know, he doesn't have a phone, so I can't, like, pull the phone away from him. But he's at an age where, like, for me and my family, like, I'm like, wow. Like, if I actually let him have a bike. And I told him straight up, I said, I'm gonna get you this bike, but it will be the number one thing I will take away from you. I was like, does it have a key? He's like, yeah. I was like, great, All I have to do is take the key from you. And I was like, it's your bike. You're buying it. But I have Control of the bike. And he's like, yeah, he wants it so bad. [00:14:00] Speaker A: He's like, you got a lover? You got a lover now. [00:14:01] Speaker B: Oh, 100%. [00:14:02] Speaker A: I can see, like the arc of the whole story of the Bible as you're talking about this, to be honest. [00:14:07] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:14:07] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. In the Old Testament is behaviorism. [00:14:09] Speaker B: 100%. [00:14:09] Speaker A: It's punishments, rewards. Right. And it's obedience to the law is spiritual childhood. And it's a beautiful thing. Right. It's like, I'm not God. You're God. Okay. I get this order for sure. That's necessary for the second part. Some people want to say, well, it's all heart, so therefore you don't have to follow rules. No, it's still the baseline. [00:14:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:14:27] Speaker A: You know, marriage should be all. It should be love. But, dude, if you don't follow the rules, it's over. You know, you just killed it. The New Testament is it brings it to the heart. [00:14:37] Speaker B: Oh, 100%. Yeah. [00:14:38] Speaker A: And well, then there's, I think, a Phariseeism that wants to go back there. There's a lot of Christians stick to the rules. Right. There's a lot of Christians who in an unsafe world, want to find safety and overrule ifying things and making rules the church doesn't even make. I've heard the young adults who, like, they're gossiping after masks about who's wearing the veil and who's not. It's like, really, this is the salvific point here. Like, this is what matters the most. You know, it's externals. Not that they're unimportant. [00:15:07] Speaker B: Sure, sure. [00:15:07] Speaker A: But some of them are just dang unimportant. But we have to go from both in our spiritual walk in everything we're trying to do, from rewards and punishments to true motivation. Yes. Why is that a necessary leap? And then let's talk about the theories of motivation and what it is so we can see the stark difference between behaviorism and motivation. [00:15:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So the whole thing about behaviorism is you can take something. Start with extrinsic, get rid of the extrinsic rewards and punishments so that it becomes intrinsic. And I'll talk about self determination theory eventually. But one thing I do want to point out that there's a lot of people that hate behaviorism. I worked in wilderness therapy for four years and ran an outdoor program for wilderness treatment center or a residential treatment center in Utah. [00:15:55] Speaker A: So like a rehab center? [00:15:57] Speaker B: A rehab center for boys. Adolescent boys. And it was tough. Like there were Some difficult boys there. And. And. But like, I learned so much. And that's actually where I ended up doing my dissertation research, was with the school. And I learned so much about motivation. And it's funny because it's. It's all based on behaviorism. But then I found out that there are other wilderness treatment center programs like that that, like, absolutely hate behaviorism. But I also saw why. Because. Because, in fact, if the only kid. So kid comes to your program and he's in wilderness therapy because he's addicted to drugs. Well, if the only reason he's addicted, the only reason he's not doing drugs is because he doesn't have access to the drugs, because in the treatment center, you don't have drugs. Well, once he, like, graduates from the program and goes back home, and if he has access to the drugs, boom, it's done. But if you can get that kid to intrinsically believe that life is better without cocaine. I remember one kid said, like, I will never. On day one, I will never. He made this, like, big statement like, tough guy, I will never not do cocaine. I'll just be here. And then. And. And by the time he left, he, like, he knew the real meaning of life. [00:17:01] Speaker A: Wow. [00:17:01] Speaker B: And why life is better without cocaine. Like, that's what you want. So now he goes back and somebody offers him cocaine, and he says, no, life is better without cocaine. But real quick, I wanted to mention about behaviorism. Partly why people hate it is because it works on the opposite effect. So if you love something intrinsically, you do it for its own purpose. And then now you put rewards and punishments on it. You can become extrinsically motivated and you lose your intrinsic. So for me, I grew up playing coke. [00:17:28] Speaker A: I want to make sure everybody catches that. [00:17:30] Speaker B: Yes. [00:17:30] Speaker A: So if you just love something. [00:17:34] Speaker B: Yes. [00:17:34] Speaker A: In and of itself, that's your motive. I'm in love with my wife in and of herself. I want to be with her. I want to spend time with her. I want to have the date night just because I love her. [00:17:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, totally. [00:17:45] Speaker A: If you give me a bunch of rules with punishments and rewards attached to that behavior, I might over focus on that, and then it becomes about that. Which is a weaker motive than just loving. [00:17:57] Speaker B: Yes. [00:17:58] Speaker A: And you can lose the love of 100% in the rules sometimes if you overdo it. [00:18:02] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. [00:18:03] Speaker A: This is a tightrope walk. When I apply this to parenting, it's like, oh, dude, this is a tightrope walk. [00:18:08] Speaker B: It's crazy. So a fun, like, just quick story. I'll go as Fast as I can here. [00:18:14] Speaker A: I want to take a quick moment here to ask you something really important. What's the best investment you can make with your life? I believe it's investing in people, investing in their joy, their faith, and their eternal destiny. That's what we do every single day at Real Life Catholic, and I want to invite you to be a part of it. Right now, our Missionaries of Joy, our monthly supporters, are helping change lives. Because of them, children are coming back to the church, marriages are being strengthened, and the gospel is literally reaching millions. But we're just getting started, guys. There's so much more to do, and we cannot do it without you. When you become a missionary of Joy, you're not just supporting a ministry. You're stepping into a mission. And you're not just donating. You're actually making this mission possible. You are helping us bring hope, truth, and joy to a world that desperately needs it. And that's not all. As a missionary, Joy, you get exclusive access to all our video series, including Living Joy, Rise, Renewed, Fearless, and more. You get exclusive early access to new releases. You get Monday motivation texts direct from me. And you get access to our daily anchor, daily inspiration to fuel your faith. All that for the same price as a lunch at Chipotle. The world needs more people who are willing to say yes to making a difference. Will you be one of them? [00:19:47] Speaker B: There's a professor or there's a psychologist who, like, years ago, he goes home, he has a grass yard in the backyard, and these kids keep playing football on it. And he's so frustrated because it's not as beautiful green. And he's get off my field. So every time he pulls into the house, get off my field. Get off my field. So he's like, I'm gonna build a fence and get a guard dog. He's like, but I don't want a fence. He's like, wait a minute, I'm a psychologist. So he comes home and he's like, hey, boys. They start to run away, like, oh, here comes the old man. He's like, no, no, come back, boys. I'm going to actually sit here and watch you, and I'm going to watch you for 30 minutes. You can use my field. And afterwards, I'm going to give you a dime, and I'm going to give you a dime every time. And they're like, sweet. We're going to get paid to play football in this old man's field. So he does that for a week, and he sits in his lawn chair and he's like, good job, good football, here's your dime. They come up afterwards like, can I get my dime, sir? So a week later, they come up to get their dime. He's like, oh, sorry, boys, I don't have any more money to give you, but you can keep playing. Well, guess what? They never show up again. Because, like, they're like, they expect to get paid. [00:20:41] Speaker A: If you want to get those kids off your lawn. [00:20:43] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, you think about a professional athlete or even for me, I grew up playing tennis. I loved it. You know, now I'm in. Now I'm in high school now. Now I have to go to practice. I'm on the varsity team. And now I'm thinking about scholarship and I'm gonna. I'm gonna have to do it for pay. And I just lost my interest. I don't wanna play tennis anymore. My senior year, I quit. I put the tennis racket down. I fell in love with the outdoors. And I ended up going to a school that literally didn't have a tennis team because I did not care about tennis. Wow. And. And they see that. What they see in. In school between three. If you ever talk to a school teacher who's taught three, three third graders and fifth graders, fifth by fourth to fifth grade in America, we typically start to put grades on thing. Well, kids naturally love to learn. They want to learn colors and shapes and numbers. They love to learn how to read. They. They are. And that's what Montessori like, they love to learn. [00:21:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:32] Speaker B: But in the K through 12, like public school system in America and, and everywhere really is like, once you get to third grade, it's gold stars and smiley faces. In kindergarten, by the time you hit fourth or fifth grade in America, it's very heavy on grades. And all of a sudden, kids are now trying to learn because they need to get a grade rather than like, I want to own my world, I want to know my world, and I want to learn. And so what we see is kids just like, lose their motivation for learning. So you got to be careful with behaviorism. That's why a lot of people hate it. [00:22:01] Speaker A: Dang. [00:22:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:01] Speaker A: You can't put that hits hard thinking about that. Then it becomes about, I want to study this so that I don't make an adult angry. [00:22:09] Speaker B: Yes. [00:22:10] Speaker A: And then, you know, you're not even old enough yet to see, I want to study this so that I don't ruin my career path. You're fifth grade. You don't care about that. [00:22:16] Speaker B: Well, in Wyoming Catholic College, our president actually he's definitely on the mindset of, like, in a perfect world, we wouldn't have grades for our students. Like, you kind of have to have grades. But, man, in a perfect world, if. If you. If your kid could just go to college, go to high school and not think about the grades and just want to learn, they wouldn't. They wouldn't have these, like, extrinsic wars. Yeah. [00:22:38] Speaker A: Wow. [00:22:39] Speaker B: So that's. [00:22:39] Speaker A: That's. [00:22:40] Speaker B: That's extrinsic behavior. That's extrinsic motivation. It's really important, ultimately, to get people and our kids and. And people that we're around and ourselves to be intrinsically motivated. I'm going to church because I love Jesus. I'm. I love the experience. Not. I'm going to church because my mom and dad are forcing me to or for whatever reason. [00:23:00] Speaker A: Do you want to talk a little more about the seven theories of motivation? Would that be helpful for people? [00:23:05] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that'd be great. [00:23:06] Speaker A: Can you just. [00:23:06] Speaker B: I'll try to make it really accessible and practical. Like, I'm a very practical guy. I work with a bunch of professors at Wyoming Catholic College who are theologians and philosophers, and I always have to say sometimes like, wait a minute. What's the take home? Like, how can I use this tomorrow? How can I use this tomorrow? [00:23:21] Speaker A: I love having them on my show because I feel like I'm the guy holding the end of a kite. Like, oh, yeah, don't. Don't fly away, dude. Don't fly away from me. It must be lovely up there. [00:23:31] Speaker B: But, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think, like, the. The biggest thing is to recognize intrinsic motivation. So I play guitar because I love. Like, what's something that is, like, fully intrinsic a behavior that you do, A thing that you like to do that you. You do it for its own sake. [00:23:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I love. I love playing guitar. [00:23:47] Speaker B: You love playing guitar? [00:23:48] Speaker A: I love. I love playing with my kids. Honestly, I love playing a board game with my family. There's no purpose. [00:23:54] Speaker B: Yes. [00:23:54] Speaker A: There's no. Yeah. There's no utilitarian purpose to that whatsoever. [00:23:58] Speaker B: And that's what intrinsic motivation is. You're doing it for the sole purpose of doing it because you just love it. And it's hard to even, like, put words on it. Like, I just love it. Why do you love to knit? Why do you love to play chess? I love it. [00:24:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:10] Speaker B: Versus, like, I play chess. [00:24:11] Speaker A: And there's all sorts of purposes to them. [00:24:13] Speaker B: Totally. [00:24:13] Speaker A: I could think of them all. [00:24:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:24:14] Speaker A: But that's not why. That's not the why. [00:24:16] Speaker B: Yeah. So. So intrinsic motivation. So my dissertation, I studied, and I'm. I'd say I'm pretty. A pretty good expert at self determination theory, which is self determination is you're doing it for yourself, you're doing it for your own purpose. And there's three main things with self determination theory. So anything. Let's use guitar in your example or me. I love to kayak. Like, it's probably one of my favorite activities that I do. So autonomy is the number one thing. Like, you do it for your. For. You get to choose to do it. Like, in other words, you. When. When you're at home and you have 20 minutes to kill and you know your kids are. Are not. And you're like, what am I going to do? Oh, I'm going to go play guitar. Like, you're choosing to do it. Number two is there's a competence. Everything that we do intrinsically, there's ability to get better at the thing. So when you first play guitar, you're like D. You can barely. Like your dexterity of your fingers. You don't know how to strum. You're just like going down, down, down. And as you play guitar now you get. Now you get G, now you get C. And you're building a competence. [00:25:11] Speaker A: Now you have the joy of expanding your capacity to enjoy everything we do. [00:25:15] Speaker B: When we get good at it, we like it more. My son did not play. He hates playing guitar. I wouldn't say he hates it. He does not play, like, playing instruments. But he just started. He got like four chords. He knows how to do them. It's not F. It's not a bar chord. It's like easy chords for him. And he found an Imagine Dragons song, which he loves. Imagine Dragons. And now he can play it. And. [00:25:37] Speaker A: And what song is he playing? [00:25:38] Speaker B: I forget what it is, but it is. [00:25:40] Speaker A: Everything's like super synth, you know? [00:25:42] Speaker B: Yeah, it's just like C, D, and G. And he. And even the chorus, the verses and the chorus are all the same chords. So he can play it. And literally, it is pulling teeth to get my son to play guitar. But what happens is he. One day, like two weeks ago, I walk in because I normally. It's like, go play guitar for 15 minutes. I'll start the timer. I come in, he's playing guitar. I'm like, whoa. And I'm like. I walk in, I'm like, hey, man, like, trying to praise him a little bit. Like, good job, you know? And it's like, it's a song. And I Recognize. [00:26:16] Speaker A: That's cool. There's things we could develop a competence in that we experience a joy that's pure pain. At first. [00:26:22] Speaker B: Yes. [00:26:23] Speaker A: I forget it was Tolkien or Lewis was talking about just the joy of reading Greek poetry in the language it was written in. [00:26:29] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:26:30] Speaker A: But that's the joy. Like, I'm not even drawn to that because, you know, like. [00:26:34] Speaker B: But. But. But if you get good enough at understanding that language, I mean, with everything we do, like, you know, I learned German, so whatever language you learned in high school or whatever, like, when you first learn, it's grueling. It's brutal. The first time, you can actually, like. The first time I remember, like, seeing somebody meeting somebody who knew German, and I could say one sentence, like, if I could say one, all of a sudden, like, oh, I'm doing it. It's working. All the effort that I've put in. So anything that we do intrinsically, when we build. When we build competence in it, we become more intrinsically motivated in it. So the kid who. I'm forcing her to ski, she can't ski. I give her the gummy bear to get on the chairlift. Extrinsic. Now she knows how to do a hockey stop. Oh, my gosh. My little Francine, she's. She's this tiny little girl, and she can hockey stop as good as anyone. And she. When I'm like, show me a hockey stop, she does it. And she looks at me to see that praise, like, daddy, I did it. And I'm like, good job. Like, oh, my gosh. You know, so. And then third is relatedness. Relatedness. [00:27:32] Speaker A: 1 and 2 are. [00:27:33] Speaker B: 1 and 2 is autonomy. In other words, I'm not forcing my kid. Even the. I would call it perceived autonomy. [00:27:40] Speaker A: So I'm just doing it because I want to, But. [00:27:42] Speaker B: But also, like, you're doing it, but you got to choose it. So perceived autonomy. That's a huge one. Theo, you have to pick an instrument. Pick one. Guitar or piano. I'll pick guitar. Now it's not. It's not. Ultimately, ultimate autonomy was do something with your life. The next level down would be like, pick anything. He goes, drums. I'm like, we're not buying a drum set. He actually wanted to play fiddle because he. His youth director was an amazing fiddleist. Sean Wood. And he grew up. Yeah, you might know him. He grew up, like, in a family of just, like, musicians. And Sean Wood's great at it. And so my son's like, well, I want to do it because Sean Wood does it. And and, and he, he very much like looks up to Sean Wood. But then I asked Sean, Sean's like, dude, like, to, to be a fiddleist, like you have to play non stop all the time. Like my son's not going to do that. He has too many other interests. So I was like pick guitar or piano. So he had some perceived autonomy or at least there's some autonomy there. And so he has the autonomy to choose competence. He's learning chords, he learned a song that he can do. He's building, he's getting better. And people recognize that he's getting better. I recognize his friends recognize it. And he knows like, oh, I'm getting better at this thing. And thirdly, relatedness, relatedness, relatedness is that there's a community of people that you do it with or that you can like share with. And so like he has other friends. In fact, you know, Justin Schneer, they're a very music family. And so one of Theo's best friends is Mori, their son. So he's about the same age as him. Well, Mory grew up in a family that is musical family. Both Justin and Hope, they're like amazing talented musicians. That's great. [00:29:21] Speaker A: He's got like a wide eyed, like, [00:29:23] Speaker B: oh my gosh, like Mor's really good. And, and Theo is like, you know, like that's, Theo knows he's not growing up in a music family the way that, that, that Mory is. But clearly when, when even Mori can say like, oh Theo, you know that song. And, and, and now Theo can relate to Maury on a musical level. [00:29:41] Speaker A: How cool. [00:29:42] Speaker B: I actually went over, I went to, I went to their house, I went to the shneur's house in California and all these kids came over and visited and they had a little jam session. Like little 12 year olds. Like there's one kid on, on drums, there's a kid on guitar and Maury's like playing the piano. And my son felt like this isn't me. He felt like kind of not connected. And so now my son can connect a little bit more with his good friend. [00:30:04] Speaker A: On a musical level, my wheels are just turned. And when it comes to ministry. Yes, with what you're saying, or a parent trying to get their kid to go from. You have to go to church to find the motivation yourself so that when you leave my home, you keep going. And it's tricky because these things do fit together. You can't tell your kid, I want you to find the motivation to go to school. So therefore I'm gonna Remove the behaviorism. You don't have to go to school, you don't have to go to church. No, you actually have to do these things and then hopefully it doesn't ruin it for you finding it within yourself. But I think of a really good church experience. They're gonna, on a gut level know that they're getting something out of it. Not have to bring the word. We know we always get something out of it as formed Catholics, so that even if it's dry and there's horrible preaching, it's not beautiful. I know I'm getting objective. [00:30:53] Speaker B: Eucharist is there, but it sure helps [00:30:56] Speaker A: when the experience tells the unformed person, you're getting something out of this. But I also think of the relatedness aspect or the competency. You could grow in it. Like people think that Christianity has this one dimensional depth and there's nothing to it, you know, But Eastern religions, Buddhist monks, they're really. No, no, we have a whole monastic tradition. Like you can grow in this stuff in advance. [00:31:20] Speaker B: Well, related. Yeah. [00:31:21] Speaker A: And the relatedness. The kid finds himself in a youth group. Yes, that's good. And realizes, hey, this is cool. Or if we go to church, we're adults, we have to surround ourselves with brothers. Like, we can't presume that we, that we're going to stay strong in all these ways. Like I have to put myself in a place where it's like, hey guys, we're growing in this as faithful man. [00:31:41] Speaker B: Well, think about Exodus 90. Like it's, it's a group of men need to do this thing. I'm not taking a cold shower, like, because I just want to do it. I have other men who are saying, take your cold shower today. Like, oh, I took my cold shower today. Well, the serving my son serves, when he first served, I said, you got to serve. Like that's what we do. Like Zimmers, we're going to serve. Like, we're going to serve. Okay, fine, I'll serve. Well, so he didn't get to choose it with autonomy, but he is getting better at it. And when he first did, he didn't get to do all the cool things. Now he can hold the cross, he can ring the bells. You know, eventually he'll be good enough to where he can actually be up on the altar and do more of the things and hold the book and hold the Bible. And so. But there's a relatedness component. There's a group of boys at the church that he's kind of bros with, that he serves with and, and, and Everything is everything, even if you're reading is a very solitary thing. But there's book clubs or you read a book and now you're on an airplane. It's a relationship next to somebody. You see the book you read and all of a sudden you're sparking up a conversation and you're relating to it, but also you're relating to the characters in the book. You're like living in their world. I think the Catholic Church relatedness compared to other religions. We have this whole world of saints that we like to relate with. Like we listen to glory stories and my, my, my kids get to like be on a road trip and hear about a little 12 year old who becomes a saint and all of a sudden they're like living. They, they, they, they. And, and a saint is like, like we talk about them as they're like actually part of our family. Right. Like they're part of our Catholic family. And now there's like. But everything has relatedness when it comes to intrinsic motivation. Even knitting. Like, knitters have like knitting clubs. And like, you see two knitters start talking about knitting and a competence. Knitting has a competence level. Like the, the beanie hat that barely fits you. That's like every knitter. It's like first project, now they can make a sweater, they can make a, they can make socks, they can make mittens, they can make gloves. [00:33:38] Speaker A: I'm loving this man. [00:33:39] Speaker B: So everything that we do, like autonomy. So, so I'm trying to motivate myself. [00:33:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:45] Speaker B: Or I'm trying to. [00:33:46] Speaker A: I need to find more motive myself. I can't seem to work out. [00:33:49] Speaker B: Get better at it. [00:33:50] Speaker A: Find other people who are doing it with you, who you can touch base with. Try to get better. Find a path for getting better at it. Sorry, go ahead. [00:33:57] Speaker B: Yeah, no, get better at it. Like find someone to tutor you find somebody. I actually struggled with a particular business math class in college. And anyway, I hated the class. I hate this class. Well, eventually I realized I need to get better. So I went in and talked to the professor. And because it's a small school, the professor literally was like, I'll give you an hour every week. Like, I was like, what? He gave me an hour every week. And I just like built my competence. It became my favorite class I've ever been in. Not because of autonomy necessary. Not because I was hanging out with bros talking about math, but because he. I learned. And all of a sudden my brain's like, I can do this. [00:34:36] Speaker A: Wow. [00:34:36] Speaker B: So, so that's something like if you struggle with Something. Learn more about it if you can. Learn more about it if you can. If you can become more competent and get better at that skill. Like, nobody likes to kayak if you. If you don't have a good kayak roll. I always tell kayakers, if you do not know how to roll a kayak, you will not enjoy it because you're on the river. [00:34:53] Speaker A: Terrifying. [00:34:54] Speaker B: Please don't go upside down. Please don't go upside down. Yeah, upside down. Pull my skirt. Swim to shore. I'm freezing. I'm cold. Where's my kayak? It's floating down the river still. If you can go into the pool, get an awesome roll. Now you're out on the river and you're catching waves, you're surfing and you're catching eddies. And like, all of a sudden, like, boom, you're progressing. And now you're. You feel competent on the river and you love it. And it becomes something that, like, you enjoy to do, you enjoy doing. So anything that you can do, if [00:35:21] Speaker A: you can build competence, it is almost counterintuitive. Cause if there's something that you are having a hard time motivating to do. [00:35:26] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. [00:35:28] Speaker A: Right. But, you know, you should. [00:35:29] Speaker B: Yep. I don't want to put more effort into this. Yeah. [00:35:32] Speaker A: I want to sit down on the couch. You know, it's like, no. But then, honestly, it hangs over your head your whole life. It's draining you of energy. You'd like to have a more robust spiritual life. You'd like to be smarter in certain areas. You'd like to be more fit. You really want to die looking back thinking, I wish I had done those three things. [00:35:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, totally. [00:35:47] Speaker A: Like, no, no, man. Like, get to it. So actually do what's in counterintuitive. Start learning about it. Find a coach. Totally find someone. [00:35:55] Speaker B: I hate learning this new language or I hate math or I hate any subject. Or, like, like, actually learn more about it. Even. Even, like, the. I think. I think we. The church kind of dumbed down catechism teaching for a while, right? Like, oh, we just want kids to come and, like, trust me, my son loves youth group when they're playing gaga ball or when they play football. Like, he loves that. And there's a relatedness component of hanging out with your bros and doing that. But also, like, I mean, we grew up in an era where, like, they kind of dumbed down catechism and, like, they didn't really teach us. Like, the youth director didn't want to, like, oh, I don't want to teach Too much. But now you can, like, it's like, wait a minute. Actually, let's teach our kids, let's have fun, let's do the football thing. But then let's actually teach our kids more about the faith. I mean, even just like glory stories. The more my kids learn about a little four year old, little six year old learning about a glory story, about a new saint, the more they know about the Catholic Church. I mean, and I'll tell you, I grew up cradle Catholic, but then I went to a very secular school, and then I lived in the very secular world of the outdoor industry for about 10 years. Like, no one, no one is religious. And then I came to Wyoming Catholic College at 36 years old, and I've been there for 14 years now. And my faith has significantly increased because I'm learning stuff because I'm at a school that is surrounded around the Catholic faith. So I'm reading things that I've never read before. I'm in a community, I'm having conversations about the Catholic faith that I never had before. And. And the more I'm learning about the faith, the more I'm actually becoming more in love with the faith. [00:37:31] Speaker A: That's awesome. [00:37:32] Speaker B: And so it's really cool, even as an adult to be able to like, whoa. Like, I'm learning more about the thing that I've done for 40 years of my life, but now the more I learn, the more competent I am and the more excited I'm about my faith. [00:37:46] Speaker A: And the way that you guys teach at what I'm Catholic. The way you teach too, there's a stepping aside and saying, you go kick butt, you go in that wilderness adventure. You try to own this yourself. [00:37:54] Speaker B: Yes. [00:37:55] Speaker A: I mean, that's healthy ministry and formation. [00:37:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:37:59] Speaker A: I'm trying to apply that to parenting, too, and to help my kids fix certain behavioral problems too. [00:38:03] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. [00:38:04] Speaker A: You know, everybody, I mean, whether. Whether it's someone watching the show or someone going to a church, like, okay, having a governor in my life and someone to step in and do the stuff for me and manage me, that's cool to a degree, you know, but most people, this is like marketing 101. They're not looking for Luke Skywalker to come and save them. They're looking for Yoda because they want to be Luke Skywalker in their story. You know, when I was in parish ministry, I had like 60 people on my team by the time I left the parish doing different areas of ministry. It's like, let's help. My mission became let's Help the average Catholic kick butt and feel like I own this thing with Jesus and with my priest, and this is truly our church. We lose that along the way. You know, I hope my whole ministry does that for people. Like, this is not the real life. Catholic is you. You know, like, I'm trying to help you kick butt. That's it. That's about you for sure. So, yeah, when I'm. When I'm trying to think of how to fix parenting problems, I don't know if you got anything helpful that comes to mind. I don't know if you. You've made this connection. You know, how do you step aside and be like, I'm. Yes. I'm your parent and I have rules. [00:39:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:08] Speaker A: And yet I. I want to. I want to be your coach and have you see. [00:39:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:13] Speaker A: You changing this way is going to kick butt. [00:39:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:39:16] Speaker A: It's going to help you kick butt as a human. [00:39:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I think. I think, like, I think if we talk about a few more theories and kind of. Yeah. [00:39:23] Speaker A: Actually rip through the theory. [00:39:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Like how. How can a parent do little tricks? So maybe I'll. I'll start with. [00:39:29] Speaker A: Are you sure you want your kid to hear this? Well, if kids tune out right now, we don't want you to know. [00:39:35] Speaker B: It'll go over there like, oh, yeah, dad looks weird on tv. My son will. Will figure it out. But, like, he's. He's smart enough, and I'm. Yeah. So. But no, there's things. Okay, so. And maybe I'll tell a story and then. And then kind of talk about the theory. So, for example, two quick stories about, like, this theory that I'm going to talk about. So number one is kids don't like to put ski boots on. It's uncomfortable. They don't like stuff. But what I do in about October, November, I love to ski. My wife loves to ski. We ski patrol for years. And. And like, we would, like, love to take our kids skiing. Well, if the first time you put ski boots on a kid is when they're, you know, at the bottom of the chairlift and you're putting ski boots on, they're gonna be like, oh, it's uncomfortable. But also they, like, don't necessarily want to do that thing. So in October, we start talking about skiing, and we. And I tell my boy especially. Cause I'm like, hey, let's get the girls to be excited about skiing. Because he knows that if the girls get better, he can ski harder runs. And. And he loves to intrinsically ski. So let's not only like talk about skiing, but I'm gonna get the ski boots out in November and we're gonna like put our ski boots on and go in the backyard and, and put our skis on in the grass and walk around in it and get. And now the four year old is like, I mean, literally the four year old didn't have her ski boots yet. And she's like, where are my ski boots? But the whole family's putting ski boots on. I want to do this thing. And she's so excited. So then I give her the ski boots and instead of her being like, you know, you put ski boots, they're heavy, dad, they're uncomfortable, they pinch my foot instead. They're like, well, my sisters, my whole family's excited about this thing. And oh my gosh, I love this. And my, and my family wants, and I like to watch ski movies before the ski season, go to YouTube, watch a five minute clip of people skiing. But don't watch the, like the crazy backflip off the 50 foot cliff. Watch kids watch a 5 year old girl skiing down the mountain. Now my 5 year old girl is like, ooh, I want to ski like that. And the girl, the video that you watch, and the girl has the biggest smile on her face and she high fives her dad. Now, now my kid wants to do that. That's one example. I want to give another story. In wilderness therapy, we took kids skiing in the wintertime. And in October or end of November, we took them to the ski rental shop and they're like, this is stupid. Why do we have to ski? And I'm like, how does a teenage boy not want to ski? Yeah, well, they've never skied before. They have no competence. They don't want to like, be the worst kid out there. They feel like a little bit of ego is going to be hit, but also like, they have no value. They don't have parents who love skiing. So I. So the first year we had kind of a bad winter, like, and I was the director of the program. I was like, that didn't really work. So now I'm learning these theories. So the next year I'm like, all right, staff. I grabbed him before November. I said, for the next month we're just going to talk about skiing, like under our breath when they're doing something else. Let's just whisper about skiing. Let's just talk about it like it's the most important thing in our lives. Let's talk about videos that we watch. Let's Talk about pro skiers. Let's. We made up a restaurant in Salt Lake City that we said, like, all the pro skiers went to and. And how, like, once in a while we go so we can watch them. Well, this is all underground. Like, we're just doing this in the background. And kids who are, like, falling asleep in their bed, and we're out in the hallway as they're falling asleep, waiting for the graveyard shift guys to show up, and we're just talking about skiing. So all of a sudden, a few kids start asking questions about skiing, and they're, like, starting to get fired up. By the time we went into the ski season, these kids were like, it's ski season. We're gonna go get our boots. Because. Because we had this, like, thing. And that's why Justin Schneer's kids love music, because Hope and Justin, they talk about music. My kids love the outdoors because my wife and I, we love the outdoors. My brother, whatever the thing that he loves soccer. I have a brother who's, like, obsessed with soccer. All four of his kids play soccer. His kid played soccer at Benedictine. Like, so if you can surround yourself by the things that you like to value. And so here's the theory. It's called expectancy value theory. [00:43:24] Speaker A: Expectancy. [00:43:24] Speaker B: Expectancy. Value theory. Number one, let's say you wrote a [00:43:28] Speaker A: book for the general public. What would you rename that theory? Because please don't call the chapter that. [00:43:33] Speaker B: Well, I like it. The Expectation and Value. That's all you have to remember. [00:43:37] Speaker A: Expectation. [00:43:38] Speaker B: In my mind, what is my expectation to succeed? Am I going to fail? Do I suck at math? Am I good at math? Do I. Am I a talent? Am I in a family that. That values math, or do my family not value math? So real simple two sides. Expectation to succeed or fail value. Do I value it or not? Well, where do kids get that? The expectation of, like. Well, like, if you, as a parent, let's say you weren't good at math. If you use words around your family where you say, like, yeah, we're just not good at math, what do you think your kid, by the time they're 12 year old and now they're in [00:44:13] Speaker A: math, you should have told me this 15 years ago. [00:44:15] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. Like. But I mean, I forget about it sometimes, too. I'll say stupid comments. And I'm like, oh, I can't say that. So I've got to always put a positive spin on everything. [00:44:26] Speaker A: Wow. [00:44:27] Speaker B: And so that my kid, let's say I wasn't good at math or Even my, my wife, she, she will say, dad's the mathematician in the house. I'm not. But I always say, like, don't say that because, because maybe she said that to get my son to be like, well, you're like your dad. You can be a good math person. But if my daughter is playing Barbie over in the corner and she hears, oh, mom's not good at math, well, she's going to relate more to mom. Just because she's a woman and my mom's. And mom's a woman, she's going to say, well, if mom's not good at math, I'm not going to be my math. So the expectation, will I succeed at this thing? My dad, I think my son is like very confident. He's a class four kayaker. He's 14 years old. Well, because his dad is good at kayaking. I think about LeBron James and his son. Like any pro athlete, their kid, like, my dad is one of the best basketball players in the world. So Bronny James is probably going to grow up with an expectation in his mind that I'm good at basketball. I might not be as good as my dad someday, but I'm good at basketball. Like, my dad's good at basketball. I'm good at basketball. So expectation. But then value. Do you value the thing? The Schneers value guitar. Maury loves guitar. I value the outdoors. My kids are going to value the outdoors. If your dad values math. There's a mathematician at Wyoming Catholic College. He's a brilliant man. He loves math, he loves chess. All of his kids. He has an 8 year old kid who's a chess master already who beat like 16 year olds at a tournament. [00:45:51] Speaker A: Wow. [00:45:51] Speaker B: He couldn't even write down the move. I guess in chess at high level chess competitions, you have to write down your move. And his mom had to like write down the moves because he's like eight years old. So. So therefore, if I'm trying to motivate my kids in something that I don't like, like maybe I'm actually, I'm not a huge guitar player. I enjoy it once in a while, but if I want to get my kid to like guitar, I need to show that I value guitar. The boys at Gateway Academy valued skiing because their mentors, the people that they, that like, works with them, they valued it. If I just say, like, let's go to church. [00:46:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:24] Speaker B: Like, you know, there's a lot of research out there right now. I think Focus did a big study. [00:46:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:29] Speaker B: About, you know, the dad, like if the dad doesn't. [00:46:32] Speaker A: I was literally gonna bring this up. I'm so glad you raised this. [00:46:34] Speaker B: If the dad isn't like the guy at home who says, we're going to church. And not like, we're going to church, we're going to church. Like, get in the car, we're going to church. But boys especially, like, and, and, and yeah, if. If. If I as a boy don't have a dad that says, like, if. If it's like, well, we're going to church because mom really wants us to go to church. That's why we're going to church. Okay, I guess I go to church. But like, once I go to college, like. [00:47:00] Speaker A: Cause no one wants to. No one likes this stuff anyway. [00:47:02] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. And like, my dad didn't value it. [00:47:05] Speaker A: I gotta say, too. Quick tangent to people who are watching. Maybe dads who are watching or mom share this with a dad who isn't watching. Like, if you're not that into it, but you want your kids to be, it's time to up your game, man. [00:47:18] Speaker B: Totally. [00:47:19] Speaker A: And act into it. And then you'll probably get into it as you act into it. But. But if not for your own sake, for the sake of your kids. Cause life is better. [00:47:26] Speaker B: A quick story. [00:47:27] Speaker A: That's hilarious. [00:47:28] Speaker B: It's like, I don't like broccoli and I don't like mushrooms. But I knew. [00:47:31] Speaker A: I love mushrooms. [00:47:33] Speaker B: I knew that I had to make sure my kids do that. So there's this. And my son's old enough now. He's figured it out. But by the time my son saw his first mushroom. Cause if it's a big chunk and I can pull it out of the soup or pull it out of the meal, I can pull it out. My wife loves, loves. And she likes to feed me well, so I. So I can stay healthy and hopefully live longer. But. But literally from the time that I had my first son, I would joke, but I wouldn't joke. He actually believed it. And my girls still to this day believe that this is one of those things. I hope they didn't. They don't learn this, but I will see the mushroom. I'm like, oh, my gosh, another mushroom. And. And I taught my son that. Like, I'll give it to you. Like, I'm the virtuous man that's going to give you the mushroom. My girls, when they see me about to eat a mushroom, they're like, dad, Dad, I want it. Can I have it? I'm like, okay. So I literally will take all My mushrooms. And they think that I love mushrooms. And broccoli is another thing. I'm not a huge broccoli or spinach. I don't really like spinach. But in my house, if you eat broccoli or spinach, you're stronger than your dad. And so I did the whole Popeye thing. They don't know who Popeye is, but we grew up with Popeye. But basically, I mean, literally, I'll be at like a. At a barbecue event, and I'll see my little daughter, a little four year old, with a piece of broccoli. She'll come up and say, dad, and she'll like, put the broccoli in her mouth. And my response is like, you're gonna beat me up. And then all they have to do is come over and push me. And I, like, do this, like, back somersault. Like, you're so strong. But, like, are we doing things to prove to show that, like, I value going to church? And as a parent with little kids, it's, are you kidding me? Like, get in the car. Like, am I? We. We feel that way. Like, we want to go to church, but it's also, like, rallying the kids, getting them dressed. Comb your hair, get your shoes on. Oh, my gosh. Get in the car. By the time you get pulled into the church, you're stressed out. You've been yelling at your kids. Put your seatbelt on if that's what our kids are seeing. And I have to stop myself. Hold on. Like, like, okay, can I put a smile on my face? We're going to church. Because I do feel that way. But the external things that are happening, we don't put that on. [00:49:37] Speaker A: And, like, put the worship music on on your way there. Like, it's time to shift. [00:49:40] Speaker B: We sing this fun like, Jesus, Theo, do you love Jesus? Like, I always try to, like, do something. I grew up with that. My dad. Mom dad did that with me. But, like, do the people. Do we value that thing? Or. Or do I, let's say as an adult, like, well, how do I value something more? Put people in your life that value that thing. If. If you value a work ethic, find people that you can, like, hang out with that value work ethic. [00:50:05] Speaker A: I just. I'm thinking of how Jesus did all these things. [00:50:08] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:50:10] Speaker A: He brought the apostles into a community of apostles. He brought them together regularly. He'd have team meetings at Peter's mother in law's house. [00:50:18] Speaker B: Oh, okay. [00:50:19] Speaker A: They would have their little interior team meeting. Probably strategize things he didn't need their help with that, but I'm sure he did that and talked about where things were going. Right. When he calls Peter, he motivates him by saying, autonomy. Peter is a mess. I'm a sinful man. You're gonna be a fisher of men. I'm gonna raise you up. You're gonna do awesome things right away. Jesus, the savior of the world, is saying, I'm gonna be Yoda. Yeah, you're Luke Skywalker. [00:50:45] Speaker B: And I'm gonna teach you. I'm gonna empower you to do this thing. I'm gonna give you the tools that you need. [00:50:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And then Sharon's excitement. I give you praise, Father, Lord of heaven and earth. Like, he let them see. He's excited about the stuff that he's teaching. I mean, he did all this. [00:50:58] Speaker B: This is so. I love the fact that he chose 12 men. Like, there's. There's a band of men that, like, did this thing. Because if he. If he chose 50, I mean, and we think about even the focus model, like, you can't have a bible study with 100. They, like, want you to actually develop a relationship with a group of men or a group of women who do a Bible study. And then now they're growing in that, and they're learning, so they're building competence. Right? Like, Bible study, building competence. And you're with a group of people. Like, there's a relatedness component and the competence component and the autonomy of, like, mom and dad aren't telling you to come to this Bible study. You're in college. You get to make your own decisions. You are choosing to come to this. And maybe, you know, the wind build, send model that they use, like, it's. It's like, I've got to get them to be excited to come. Like, so maybe it is volleyball. Maybe it is. Come join. Come play spike ball with me and. Hey, man, you should come to our Bible study. It'd be a lot of fun. We're good people. We're good people. Come join us. And then now they're learning about their faith. Maybe they're cradle Catholic, but do they really know about their faith? And all of a sudden, now they're learning something about their faith. Building competence. [00:52:00] Speaker A: Dudes, in the interest of time. [00:52:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:02] Speaker A: Can you rattle through those seven theories and, like, give us a sentence and [00:52:06] Speaker B: I'll give, like, the. [00:52:07] Speaker A: Can we link to your dissertation under this? Oh, yeah. [00:52:10] Speaker B: Oh, 100%. [00:52:10] Speaker A: Okay. John, note that if you want to geek out. [00:52:13] Speaker B: If you want to geek out, it's [00:52:14] Speaker A: 100 deep into all this. I. It's worth reading. [00:52:18] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. So let's see. So we talked about behaviorism. So use rewards and punishments, but pull away eventually so that they can build intrinsic. On the flip side, if your kids love something intrinsically, be careful of putting too much stress on. You gotta get a scholarship. You gotta do this thing for now, a utilitarian purpose. So that's behavior. [00:52:40] Speaker A: And we see our kids. But this is also. I'm looking at myself as I manage my own spirit, as the parent of me. [00:52:46] Speaker B: I have friends who purposely didn't want to be. I was ski patrol for years. Years. Raft guide for years. I have. I have friends who are like, yeah, I. Like, I know that I. If I start to do that. And I saw, like, the old timers who patrolled and skied and they didn't like it anymore. No, they. They did it as a job. They didn't. They never on their day off. As a rookie ski patrol, every day I'm skiing at work and my days off. Like, I'm going skiing. By the time year six, I'm like, I don't need to ski every day on my day off. But the old timers who are patrolling in their 40s and 50s, they never skied on their days off. Like, so you just lose that intrinsic motivation. So there's intrinsic motivation. The next one is actually Maslow's hierarchy of needs. That's a basic one. And the fact that, like, you know, am I not motivated because I'm tired? Like, at core expeditions, we run wilderness expeditions. I always tell my staff and instructors, like, do not try to have a debrief about, like, what did we learn today? How can we grow individually? How can we learn about God if we're tired? We haven't eaten, we didn't sleep last night, it's raining, I'm cold, I'm wet. Like, let's get him in dry clothes. Let's feed him a good meal, and then now let's have, like, a good campfire discussion. So let's see. Self determination theory. We talked about that. Give your kids perceived autonomy. Even, like, the choice of like. Like, my son doesn't like to read, but I'm like, pick a book. It's too big of a question. Okay, you can lead. You can read Lord of the Rings. You can read this. You can read this. He's. You got to pick one. You got to read. Like, okay, he got a little bit of autonomy, but the more he reads, the more he develops competence. He gets better at It. And then now he's sharing a story with, like, oh, you read Lord of the Rings? Oh, you read Lord of the Rings. I like it when he hangs out with his cousins because now his cousins, like, he's reading Lord of the Rings right now. And he's got five or six cousins that are his age that love Lord of the Rings. We're going to see him next weekend on a ski trip. Big families are a ski trip, dude. I'm just. [00:54:29] Speaker A: I'm just recognizing a mistake. I don't want kids. [00:54:31] Speaker B: I want him to like that. [00:54:33] Speaker A: It's all my kids. Read Lord of the Rings, then watch the movies. By the time I get to my sixth kid, the expectation is so high. [00:54:39] Speaker B: Yes. [00:54:39] Speaker A: She's like, I don't want to read Lord of the Rings. I don't like Lord of the Rings. [00:54:42] Speaker B: Like, oh, pick a different book. Give them three options. [00:54:45] Speaker A: She probably would have loved it if I had given her three options. [00:54:48] Speaker B: And maybe you would have picked that one. Maybe you would have picked that one. But, like, perceived autonomy. Because as parents, we can't just give our kids the world. But like, you get these three things. Pick an instrument, pick a book to read, give that autonomy, and then competence. Make sure, like, if my son's just like, go learn guitar. No, I've got a college student who's a really good guitarist, and I'm hiring her to, like, teach him. So competence and then third, relatedness. So I'm going to purposely make. Give experience. I'm going to purposely connect my kid with somebody who can actually, like, relate with and be like, oh, wow, I like that thing too. So that's that expectancy value we talked about that build it so that your kid knows that they can succeed. Give them achievable goals. In other words, like, read this really hard book that's like, way above your reading level. Like, no, Give your kid a book that's, like, they don't read a chapter and A, be like, I don't even remember what I read. Or B, like, it took me forever to read one page versus, like, oh, I zipped through it. It was easy reading. Like, okay, like, is it achievable? So therefore, my expectation to succeed at reading is good. And I value reading. My mom loves reading. Does my dad love reading? Does my dad hate reading? Right. Like, we want to do that. So that's expectancy value theory. The next is self efficacy theory. Self efficacy. Albert Bandura. What? That theory is basically your self efficacy, which easy way to think about is your own confidence. Like, okay, Am I going to be good at making egg? We have self efficacy of everything. Making eggs in the morning, taking a shower, playing tennis, reading a book. [00:56:18] Speaker A: I could shower all day. [00:56:19] Speaker B: Yeah, everything, everything. Like we do have a self efficacy. It's more of a subconscious of kind confidence. But the thing about self efficacy is the more if you have high self efficacy, you'll actually be more focused. They did a great, a great study where they took tennis players who are in the tennis world. There's rankings. [00:56:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:38] Speaker B: And so like you're ranked number 12 and, and, and you're ranked number, you know, 200. Well, if you're 200 and you're playing 12, you know you're going to get beat. So your brain actually goes into like they, so what they did is a study like 12, 20 years ago. They flipped the numbers. They didn't tell the tennis players, flip the numbers. And what they found is the guys who were lower, the 200th guy ended up beating the 12th guy more often and more first serves in more winner shots because there's this level and think about the things that you're really, the thing that you're really good at, like, or a topic that you are really good at. You go in with just like this immense amount of focus and you're like, I'm an expert at this thing. Like, I can talk about motivation because I studied it for years. [00:57:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:20] Speaker B: Like, but if you start talking about something else that I'm not good at, like, oh, I'm going to back off. [00:57:25] Speaker A: But my start tripping up. [00:57:26] Speaker B: Yeah. My level of confidence when I'm talking about self determination theory. Because it's like the study that, the thing that I am really good at, I can talk about it all day long and I'm going to talk about it with confidence. So how do we give our kids ourselves self efficacy? Well, a lot. You'll see a lot of these theories that play with each other. I need to get better at the thing, do the actual thing, make it attainable, do it and do it well and get better at it. Build competence. Okay. So that's number one. That's the best way to grow in self efficacy. [00:57:54] Speaker A: And it's exponential success. [00:57:55] Speaker B: Yeah. The second one is vicarious experience for self efficacy. Vicarious experience works when somebody like you does it and you go, if she can do it, I can do it. If he can do it, I can do it. [00:58:08] Speaker A: Right. [00:58:08] Speaker B: So my son, if my son watches Maury play guitar. [00:58:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:58:13] Speaker B: He does not see Mory, same age. He's a boy. I'm A boy, he's my age. But Mory grew, grew up with, in a family that plays music. That is not a relatable character in Theo's brain to say I can do it. But now he sees his, his really good friend who has never played guitar. They both started playing guitar at this Montessori school together. He sees his friend learn an Imagine Dragons song. If no one can do it, I can do it. My son, my son and his best friend, one of his best friends learned how to unicycle like a month ago. [00:58:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:58:47] Speaker B: And literally they went from like barely balancing and I can't even, I, I'm very, I would say I'm a pretty athletic guy and I cannot unicycle. [00:58:54] Speaker A: No, no hardcore. [00:58:55] Speaker B: But my son gets on a unicycle and he's going down stairways now. He's like, he, he did a four mile mountain bike trail because I was [00:59:02] Speaker A: like on a unicycle. [00:59:03] Speaker B: Well, I was joking with him. I was like, Theo, like it's going to be slow with your four year old sister and your six year old sister, maybe you should unicycle kind of joking. Next thing you know, I, we get the bikes off, we lock the doors. [00:59:12] Speaker A: Watch me say to a 14 year [00:59:14] Speaker B: old, oh, and, and, and, and I, and I turn around, he's got his unicycle. I was like, Theo, I was joking. He was like, no, I'm gonna do it. He did a four mile trail, like technical. [00:59:20] Speaker A: That's unbelievable. Crazy. [00:59:22] Speaker B: But like, why did he get good at unicycling? Not only did he practice a lot and he, he watched YouTube videos how to do it. So there's the self, self efficacy of actually doing the thing. And, but then he saw like three or four of his friends that like it's, it's anything that we did. Like you see your friend do the stairway for the first time or the first step, you're like, I'm going to try it now. He sees you. When we build off each other, any sports, like you see your friend hit a harder serve and, and, and, and all of a sudden you're going to do it. With climbing, it was a huge one for me. Me and four of my friends in high school, we started climbing and like, guy goes up, takes a lead fall, like, well, he tried and then he succeeds. Well, I can do it now. I do it now I'm doing it and now he's building off of me and, and that's why we see like athletes, like if LeBron James and Kobe Bryant are challenging each other. We see them rise together. But if Kobe Bryant didn't have a LeBron James to push him and vice versa, we wouldn't have got to see the. These amazing basketball players grow. [01:00:21] Speaker A: This is also why, like, honestly, the average, everyday, layman Catholic, you can't underestimate your importance, man. It's so important to just do the thing right where you are. [01:00:32] Speaker B: Totally. [01:00:32] Speaker A: Because when it comes to me playing basketball, if I look at LeBron James, I feel hopeless. [01:00:36] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. There's no. I'm simply not a very. He's not a vicarious, experienced character in our world. [01:00:40] Speaker A: That's it. Yeah. So when someone sees us sitting here, like, there's a unique power to this vocation, this calling. [01:00:47] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:00:48] Speaker A: Right. So a lot of intentionality behind the 10 black T shirts. [01:00:52] Speaker B: Sure, Totally. [01:00:53] Speaker A: You know, because it's like, that schlep can do it. Yes, maybe I can. [01:00:57] Speaker B: It's relatable. [01:00:57] Speaker A: He's not a quick professional. [01:00:59] Speaker B: Totally. Yeah. So vicarious experiences. Find people in your life to motivate yourself that are like you, that you can be like, if. If they can do it, I can do it. Make sure you do that. But. But for your kids. Like, I want to find people that are like my son, that are doing that thing so that he can be accessible. And then the third thing is, there's, in a nutshell, don't say good job. So here's the thing about good job. Okay? So a teacher says good job to every single kid. The kid when he hears that, goes, well, yeah, you're a teacher. You're supposed to say, good job. Even a dad is like, good job. Good job. If I walk in and I'm like, hey, guys, how was soccer? Oh, it was good. Good job. If my son, he plays goalie for soccer. If at the end of the game, I say, good job, he's like, yeah, my dad. His brain internalized. [01:01:45] Speaker A: You're paid to say good job. [01:01:47] Speaker B: You're my dad. Of course you're gonna take a job. So what do we do instead? Yeah, we give specific feedback that lets them know they did something well. So in other words of my son, if I say, hey, that last goal you saved, that was awesome. That doesn't do much. But if I say, did you notice, Theo, how you, like, you did such a good job communicating with your defenders, like, your teammates, so that that guy was covered so you didn't have to think about him and you could focus on that? And that's why you got that one on one, because you weren't thinking about something else, but it's because you communicated with your defenders. That's why he did. And so now he can internalize it. That. Not only that, like, he can actually take that feedback and use it. But also, my dad isn't just giving me the blanket good job statement. We gotta be careful not to say the word good job. So that's the third part of self efficacy. So again, do the actual thing. Find mentors, find people, give them the skills to grow in that thing. Find vicarious experiences, people that are like them, that are doing it, so they can grow from that. And thirdly, don't give the, like, basic praise. Give them actual feedback that will help them, like, internalize it and know that you're not just saying good job, you're actually giving them real things. And now they. That now they're going to grow from that. So that's self efficacy. Social learning theory. [01:02:57] Speaker A: Which number are we on? [01:02:58] Speaker B: Probably four. [01:02:59] Speaker A: Four. [01:03:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:03:00] Speaker A: So, okay, rip through the next ones. You're going to have to read the dissertation. [01:03:04] Speaker B: Social learning theory, super simple. Monkey see, monkey do. Do the thing. If you want your kid to love going to church, even though maybe you're like, oh, this is so difficult to get my kids in the car. Like, you better be doing things to role model the thing that makes them want to do it. So that's social learning theory. Super simple. We can. We can jump to the next flow, which is csiksamahalyi, if you've heard of flow theory or what we might think of, like, in the zone. Right? So when we experience flow by who? So csiksa mahaly. [01:03:34] Speaker A: It's the whole thing. Flow by chicks. Oh, yeah. [01:03:38] Speaker B: Yeah, totally, totally. So what flow is. Is. And you've experienced this. Hopefully most people experience this. It's when you're doing an activity that's challenging, but your skill meet that. [01:03:48] Speaker A: No, I got to go against the flow. I'm sorry, I'm going to. [01:03:51] Speaker B: Yeah, no, no, flow it in a good way. Like, you want the flow. Experience is when you're playing basketball and three hours go by every three is going in, every layup's going in. You're stealing the ball. You're just in the mo. And we've seen athletes do this, but we've also experienced it when I'm. [01:04:09] Speaker A: When I'm playing guitar or when you're doing what? When I'm preaching, that's what. [01:04:13] Speaker B: Yeah, there you go. [01:04:13] Speaker A: Magical thing that happens. [01:04:15] Speaker B: 15 minutes go by and it's like, boom. [01:04:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:04:17] Speaker B: Like, so that's flow. And the thing about flow is if you experience flow, you want to do it again. So when it comes to intrinsic motivation, if I, if, if I don't experience flow and kayaking, why would I ever want to go kayaking again? If I experience flowing, kayaking, I want to do it again. It's really fun. [01:04:32] Speaker A: What's neurologically happening when flow? [01:04:34] Speaker B: So what happens? [01:04:35] Speaker A: There's an anointing and 100% that sometimes that's, that's something that's intangible. That's from the Lord. [01:04:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, totally. Yeah. Yeah. [01:04:41] Speaker A: What is, what is happening? [01:04:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And so the way flow works is you have to have a level of competence and skill, and then you have to have the challenge that meets that. So, for example, so super simple kayaking, most people know, like, class one, class two, class three, class four. Yeah. Let's say I'm a class three kayaker. If I go to class four, I'm in panic zone, I'm in anxiety zone. I'm scared the whole time. It's maybe above my pay grade. Like, ooh, you're not in. You're never gonna experience flow that way. If you, if you go to panic zone too much. If I go to Class 5 and I'm a Class 3 kayaker, I'll never kayak again. I had a good friend who taught his girlfriend how to kayak. Threw her right into a Class 3 rapid. She didn't even know how to roll. She never kayaked again. And he, like, wanted his girlfriend to kayak. Dumb idea. Don't do that. Um, on the, on the flip side, if it's boring, like, if you're Class 3 kayaker and you're doing Class 1, Class 2, you're bored, you don't want to do it again. But if you're a class three boater and you're kayaking class three, you get off the river and you're like, I want to do it again. Where's the next class three river? Or I'm going to do it ten more times. Um, so think about that when it comes to motivation, like, if it's reading, if it's, if it's, if it's. If it's. My son goes to youth group and they're talking about super high level things, and my son is like, I don't know anything that they're talking about a youth group. [01:05:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:57] Speaker B: Or vice versa. I send my son to Steubenville of the Rockies and. Or I send my son to some retreat and it's super basic, and my son comes Back like, how was it? He's like boring. I didn't learn anything. But if I can send my son or if my, if I can surround the thing that I need to be motivated. Motivated in with a level of skill that matches my level of challenge. [01:06:17] Speaker A: I love that concept of puo. And make sure you're challenging your kids. Yes, make sure. Like, don't we think by making it easy we're going to attract people to things? [01:06:26] Speaker B: Yeah, no, no, no. We don't need it. [01:06:27] Speaker A: Christianity, that's too easy. It's just not attractive. Especially young men. Well, again, it's why Jesus, when he called Peter, you're going to be a fisher of men. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're a sinful man. We're going to raise the bar, man. Gonna do really hard things. [01:06:40] Speaker B: Totally. Yeah. And again, I think like, I think the church did a lot of that. Like, you know, in the 90s, catechism was super, like dumbed down, I think a little bit. So those are, those are the main theories of like, how do we motivate [01:06:53] Speaker A: people and then, and how do you find challenges yourself? [01:06:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:56] Speaker A: Like when you're setting the bar for a spiritual sacrifice or it's Lent and it's like, what do I give up? Yeah, dude, you make it too easy. You're not, you're gonna forget. It's gonna just bore you. You make it too hard. [01:07:05] Speaker B: I mean, like, yeah, don't make it too hard. Like I'm gonna do all this stuff. [01:07:08] Speaker A: Too rigorous is not inherently good. [01:07:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. [01:07:11] Speaker A: Meet yourself where you're at. [01:07:12] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and, and, and, and a lot of it is like, yeah, like is my Lent? Is my Lent sacrifice that I'm going to do that? Whatever. The thing is, is it like so unattainable and now, and now when we don't attain it, then we feel like, well, I suck at this. Like so, so I guess next Lent I'm not gonna do anything. Versus like no. Like really? Ask yourself. Cause maybe your friend is doing something really bold. Yeah. Like I'm going to give up all chocolate, all candy, all sugar. Like, whoa. Like that's way too much. [01:07:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:07:42] Speaker B: Like if I did that with my kids, they would hate Lent. We don't do dessert. Like they get candy here and there, but we don't do dessert. It's a big sacrifice for a four year old like to not do dessert. Right. So. But make it accessible, make it 20 year old and yeah, it's hard, it's hard for me. I, I don't look forward to not doing dessert. [01:07:58] Speaker A: And then I keep an eye on myself too. Like, I do. I'm am writing this core confirmation program right now. [01:08:04] Speaker B: It's just. [01:08:04] Speaker A: We are just. Yeah. It's cool, right? Well, it's like being deployed. Like people in military, sometimes you're just. You're just working all the time. That's the season, you know? And as a spiritual sacrifice, I'm like, lord, I'm not going to touch any alcohol. Just I'm doing like several things as sacrifices for the kids that are going to be reached by this. [01:08:23] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [01:08:24] Speaker A: But then I started to realize, like, okay, zero alcohol. Like it was. I don't. I don't drink much, but I thought maybe once a week I'll have a one or two glasses of wine if I'm out with friends. Because I was. I was watching my own spirit and realizing that when I'm the level of rigor in my work life and then praying for an hour a day and working out for an hour a day and then zero. Like zero. Unplug with a glass of wine. It was like I was starting to feel like a machine. [01:08:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:08:53] Speaker A: And losing a bit of humanity. [01:08:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:55] Speaker A: And it's. Yeah. I guess all this to say, watch your pastor yourself. [01:09:01] Speaker B: Yes. [01:09:02] Speaker A: Right. Watch your own spirit. Because sometimes you're setting the bar a little beyond where even God is asking you to set it. [01:09:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:08] Speaker A: And you just burn yourself out. [01:09:10] Speaker B: You know, New Year's resolutions. How many. Just like after the first month, people are like, I'm done. [01:09:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Cause like, maybe you shouldn't have said it there. [01:09:15] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. [01:09:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, here is. Here is good. [01:09:18] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:09:19] Speaker A: Oh, totally. Yeah. So where are we at now? [01:09:21] Speaker B: That's. I think, I think I covered all stuff. [01:09:23] Speaker A: Bro. We covered so much ground today. [01:09:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:09:26] Speaker A: Like, this is one of those interviews I'm gonna wanna watch like four times. Yeah. And just pluck things out of. Because it's so essential. Would you say we're. I wanna leave with this? Would you say we're having a crisis in motivation and culture? [01:09:40] Speaker B: Oh, 100%. Kids don't leave their. They're not leaving their basements. [01:09:43] Speaker A: Why is that happening? Like kids are social media smoking weed. [01:09:47] Speaker B: Well, video games. Look at video games. Why are video games so like kids, especially boys, they like, love them. Well, think about it. Autonomy. They get to pick it. Competence. Competence. Like we grew up in Nintendo era. Like when you. I did Mario Brothers as a kid. [01:10:04] Speaker A: I could hear Zelda. [01:10:05] Speaker B: Did you do. Oh, yes. When you got the next level, when you saved the princess in the next level, there's this immediate. It's immediate feedback. You succeed, you die. Mario Brothers dies next time. Oh, you got to the next level. Like, there's. We don't get as much feedback anymore of, like, the instant feedback of you succeeded or you didn't, and then relatedness. So even if you're playing your own video game, like when I was a kid, you talk to another kid, and all of a sudden you're talking about, do you know the special passcode? Or if you do a B, B, B, B, A. Like, it gets you to the underground water world. In Super Mario Brothers, all of a sudden there's this, like, level of, like, now your bros are talking about it. And so video games is a horrible thing. [01:10:46] Speaker A: It's tantalizing psychology and motivation. [01:10:49] Speaker B: Yes. [01:10:49] Speaker A: Oh, 100% completely. And brought it to something relatively interesting. [01:10:53] Speaker B: One of the guys that I went to graduate school with, he did a dissertation on video games and how it is so based on, like, motivation and the instant feedback that you get. Because things that give us immediate feedback. That's super helpful. If I'm going wakeboarding and I fall, like, it's immediate feedback versus things that don't really give me feedback. Like, you know, you can think about certain activities where you don't get immediate feedback. There's an app now on guitar where, like, because if you have a. If you have a coach or a mentor who's teaching you guitar and you play a G, they can hear like, oh, no, no, you're not doing it right. Like, push harder here. Like, you're. You're not doing it right. There's an app now that listens where when you play G, the app knows if you're doing it well, and the app can tell you if you're not doing it well, there's an immediate feedback. So now a kid who needs that immediate feedback, but I don't have a coach. Well, now I've got my app open, I play G, and it literally says, that's a G. You know, you see, you see G, you play D. The things in our life that give us immediate feedback help us with motivation. Because they fix it. They say, you're doing it wrong. Fix it. Oh, you're doing it right. Oh, like you're finding, like. [01:12:01] Speaker A: So when people who love you are supposed to be present to you, they [01:12:03] Speaker B: need to give you. [01:12:04] Speaker A: Providing you that when they are not there, you're gonna get it from a video game. Not that video games are inherently evil. [01:12:10] Speaker B: No. [01:12:10] Speaker A: If they're limited, like Carl Kutis did. He's like an hour a week. That's pretty intense. But, dude, I'm kind of horrified right now, honestly. I'm thinking, like, this is why it's so addictive for so many people. [01:12:24] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah. Things that give you feedback immediately are addictive. Even. Even social media you're scrolling through, there's not feedback. You're not like, you're not doing something. And then. But what you are is your feedback of, like, oh, like, because it's a smartphone and it knows the algorithm rhythm, knows what you like. So all of a sudden, like, it becomes you, like. And there's. There's an immediate feedback of social media. There's an immediate feedback of video games. There's immediate feedback of things that even. Even. Even drugs and alcohol. Like, there's immediate feedback that you get of, like, you do something and you get this feeling. And so. So if. If dad is just saying good job, and the teachers are just saying good job, or dad comes to practice, but I know that he just kind of showed up and he was on his phone doing emails the whole time or comes to my soccer game. But if dad comes to the soccer game, and my problem is I try to give my son too much negative feedback. But if I can, like, driving from the soccer game to go to dinner. If I can tell, like, 10 things that he did in a positive way. You did really well here. You did. And he knows, like, whoa. My dad watched the game. He actually. He wasn't on email up in the stands scrolling through his phone. He actually watched the game. Cause he knows that when this happened and this happened that, like, I did this thing. That's huge. Our kids need immediate feedback, and we need immediate feedback on the things that we do if our wives, if our spouses aren't giving us feedback, like, how do I know if I'm doing the right thing or not? [01:13:53] Speaker A: This is all a challenge to up our games. [01:13:55] Speaker B: Yes. [01:13:56] Speaker A: As dad, as leaders, I'm applying it to our own. To real life Catholic. Well, I think of our. We have these coaching programs that our missionaries enjoy, have access to. [01:14:03] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:14:04] Speaker A: You can get better at being more peaceful. You can get better at overcoming fears. You can, like, these different areas, and they can interact with each other and encourage each other. It's like, all. I've often been thinking, like, why is that so special? Like, it's not a ton of people doing this. Sure, yeah, yeah. Like, lots might watch a video, but. But, like, fewer do that. But, like, it's what's special because it's clicking all these next level motivation boxes or like hallow success they show you you're doing this challenge with x number of people. Oh and you click a box. I completed a challenge like this is. Wow. We can't afford right now to overlook this cause if we do call of duty's gonna get em. [01:14:41] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:14:42] Speaker A: Oh totally. Like whatever else might take over their lives and fill that necessary gap 100% but Lord help us, help us be creative so that we can make sure that you fill that gap for the next generation and for us. [01:14:55] Speaker B: Totally. [01:14:56] Speaker A: Oh man this is. Anyway I'm going to be thinking about this one for a long time. [01:15:00] Speaker B: Good, good. Me too. Me too. I love thinking about it. [01:15:04] Speaker A: Thank you so much bro. This has been incredibly helpful. God bless you. God bless what you do. I love you guys. I hope this has blessed you too. We'll see you next. [01:15:16] Speaker B: It.